Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[KDSilver]

I get that people want to have fun, chill because they had a hard day at work, with children ect... and FFXIV is pretty good at giving these things.
But nonetheless, FFXIV still is a video game, not an interactive movie, so using a bit of brain shouldn't look as awful as that. We're going really hard in that way
It's not like you need to pass a big exam or something. Sometimes it's just reading and logic. Or asking for logic is too hard nowadays idk.

In any case, I think we should have better dungeons.

[Shurrikhan]

its ironic cuz there really isnt much grind at all if you dont care about harder content. if youre is so casual all you do is msq and dungeons then... what exactly do you even need tome gear for? glamour?

Well, yes. Glamour acquisition is endgame progression, after all.

making the expert dungeons extra braindead so people who dont even need the tome gear can farm tomes doesn't make much sense

And yet, as a community, we seem only ever to make fun of WoW for exploiting players' perceived obligatory gameplay loops to extend hours played...

[Melorie]

Quoting for emphasis. Also a WoW refugee. The things people are asking for have ruined countless other MMO's not just WoW. Overly competitive content just breed toxicity. A side note Im actually concerned about Endwalker "bring more PvP content." The few front lines I have done are one of the only places where I have seen people call out others so negatively and be super toxic. Im really glad you at least can't see the names of enemy team mates.

Uh, what? This is such a narrow-minded view of things. Online games have toxic communities not because they're competitive, but because people are under an online persona and in turn feel more comfortable being rude. FFXIV has a good share of toxic people, but of course the moderation in this game is better therefore you see less of it being written out.

Some of the deepest bonds I've _ever_ seen in games were made in competitive games (like E.V.E online for example). Meanwhile in FFXIV you never know when someone is going to throw a fit and be passive-aggressive for petty stuff.

Also... Personally, I've never seen people being toxic in frontlines - at all, and frontlines are not even taken seriously by like at least half of the people that queue for it anyway.

-

It's the game equivalent of giving a child screaming and throwing a tantrum in a store, toys and candy because you don't want to listen to it.

Basically. I never did extremes I'm not interested in - I don't know why the FFXIV community feels that they NEED to do everything and that it has to be as fast as possible. I swear I saw people that literally did not even touch any battle-content besides msq spending their whole day doing fates for relic and thanking that "at least I can finish it in one day". Go figure.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

The "casuals" you're referring to don't even need tomestone gear unless they plan to do the content people like to label as "hardcore". So then these "casuals" then get the gear needed to meet the ilvl requirements to jump into the "hardcore" content because they want the shiny mounts, sparkly trial weapons, etc. They spend 95% of the time on the floor because they were allowed to stand in AoE markers pressing 2-3 buttons most of the time due to current dungeon design and easy mode settings in the MSQ.

And? They still pay the same amount you do every month. Perhaps even more, depending on your mogstation habits and extra retainers. Everyone likes having goals, gaining stats and feeling more powerful than before; it's irrelevant if they want to step into harder content or not. I have plenty of casual friends who'd never set foot into EX+ content but feel so happy and proud whenever they get a new tomestone gear, or a new upgrade drop from the 24 mans. You don't get to dictate whether they need the gear or not.

Spoiler alert: they also outnumber you many magnitudes over in number.

You could jump into EX trials in DF in ARR and have a fairly good chance at clearing it.

We talking about the same ARR DF where Titan hard was such a crapshoot until well into the end of the expansion? Or how the steps of faith & Chrysalis were utter wipefests because they required even the slightest thought process? ARR DF wasn't as magically more awesome as you remember behind those rose tinted glass. My memories of Garuda EX DF queues for the short time before I learned to use PF like everyone else were quite the opposite, batting nearly 20 attempts with most not getting past the first set of sisters. Ifrit was probably the only one that you'd have a decent chance at in the DF at the time, since only people who managed to beat 'Titan EX: the bad player annihilator' could do it.

They were cleared with random people reliably until they nerfed Shinryu normal after people again complained for weeks that they were being "gated" out of content.

Shinryu normal was never nerfed, iirc, Only made easier over time as more players got better gear. Go ahead and look over the entirety of the 4.x patches and link me the one that specifically says Shinryu normal was nerfed; I'll wait. People also whined about final steps of faith and that was never nerfed either. Only normal steps of faith ever received a nerf. The devs don't nerf everything oh willy-nilly the moment people whine & cry, they look at it objectively and decide from there.

The dumbed down 4 player duty design and nerfs to various duties and the MSQ is nothing but an act of appeasing lazy players and enabling their behavior.

It's called appealing to the infinitely vast majority that pay your bills. Hence why so many games include difficulty options, or in the absence of them, balance their game around the most common denominator you'll find that'll be giving you their money. In the case of FF14, they want an easy, casual way for anyone to build up tomes and get new shiny gear, so when they can only make one dungeon a patch, they're naturally going to target the portion of the playerbase that is in the vast majority. It's simple business economics.

I wonder if they'll ever encounter the passing thought that we wouldn't so need to help players "keep up with" the grind if there wasn't so much (predominantly dull) grind to begin with...

Sure, but dailies & weekly number grinds are the easiest way to skinner box a majority of players than having to come up with a much more creative way to keep the masses logging in daily. : )
~~Hence part of the reason why mobile games make ridiculous amounts of money for such little dev time.~~

[Theodric]

Putting aside players who may deliberately not put in much effort in the first place, there's a decent chunk who do very much want to raid but never get the opportunity to do so as a result of the often ridiculous requirements and expectations put before them.

It's probably easy for some people to claim that the situation is 'fine' if they themselves have been lucky enough to find a reliable and consistent group to raid with. Not everybody gets that luxury however. Equally, not many raiders are willing to teach and train new blood in a way that allows for mistakes.

Ultimately, there aren't many people willing to raid compared to the number of players who don't care about raiding. So if the intention is to increase interest in tougher content, then I think it'd be good if more raiders stepped up to help people clear the content that they want to see more of.

That's just my two cents, though - as someone who loves Aurum Vale and would very much like to see dungeons that require thought and effort in order to complete them.

[Nyarlha]

Putting aside players who may deliberately not put in much effort in the first place, there's a decent chunk who do very much want to raid but never get the opportunity to do so as a result of the often ridiculous requirements and expectations put before them.

It's probably easy for some people to claim that the situation is 'fine' if they themselves have been lucky enough to find a reliable and consistent group to raid with. Not everybody gets that luxury however. Equally, not many raiders are willing to teach and train new blood in a way that allows for mistakes.

Ultimately, there aren't many people willing to raid compared to the number of players who don't care about raiding. So if the intention is to increase interest in tougher content, then I think it'd be good if more raiders stepped up to help people clear the content that they want to see more of.

That's just my two cents, though - as someone who loves Aurum Vale and would very much like to see dungeons that require thought and effort in order to complete them.

I think outside of crazy hardcore statics, nobody has an issue with someone new to savage. What those people have to understand though, is that it's not up to your static to teach you how to play your job. And i'm not talking about having high parses either, I'm just talking about knowing your basic rotation and stuff like ABC. You can't expect to show up in Savage and find a static if you can't even do those.

Let's not act like reading a guide, practicing your rotation beforehand and having proper gear/melds is a big ask. None of that is hard.

[HappyHubris]

And? They still pay the same amount you do every month. Perhaps even more, depending on your mogstation habits and extra retainers. Everyone likes having goals, gaining stats and feeling more powerful than before; it's irrelevant if they want to step into harder content or not. I have plenty of casual friends who'd never set foot into EX+ content but feel so happy and proud whenever they get a new tomestone gear, or a new upgrade drop from the 24 mans. You don't get to dictate whether they need the gear or not.

So why not make all the skins available for purchase from a vendor with gil. I don't give a rat's arse about rewards and just enjoy tough content for tough content's sake.

[Shurrikhan]

So why not make all the skins available for purchase from a vendor with gil.

Because then crafting and market manipulation would be the sole (glamour) endgame progression mechanism?

[DPZ2]

The "casuals" you're referring to don't even need tomestone gear unless they plan to do the content people like to label as "hardcore".

Really?

• 5.0/5.1 iLevel requirement 430. Satisfied with Weathered Gear
• 5.2 iLevel 440. Where's this supposed to come from? Tomestone gear works nicely.
• 5.3 iLevel 460. Sure looks like Tomestone gear can satisfy this MSQ dungeon
• 5.4 iLevel 470. Again, Tomestone gear can satisfy this MSQ dungeon
• 5.5 iLevel 490. Crystarium tomestone gear or above

None of this content is "hardcore". Your blanket statement is false on the face of it.

[RitsukoSonoda]

snip

A majority of your responses simply indicate a blind belief that your side is a majority with no indication of understanding of human behavior or any actual data to back any of your claims up.

If you had extremely poor success rates clearing EX trials in ARR with randoms then either you were extremely unlucky or one of the problem elements was you. And if you're going to post a contrary statement then YOU provide proof. Demanding the other party do so simply indicates you were too lazy to verify your own claim before posting it and just points to you being part of that minority that want everything handed to you without having to work for it which your claims of EX trial experiences are also pointing to. All you've succeeded in doing with most of your post is destroy any credibility you might have had beforehand.

The people supporting the game difficulty being nerfed into oblivion fall primarily into 3 categories.
1. Lazy players that want everything handed to them.
2. People that think siding with them will make them look good and get them likes or make them popular. They jump on the side that they think will make more people like them or think they are a better person.
3. People that are only siding with them because they hope the noisy minority that make up category 1 and 2 will stop being loud and obnoxious.

At the same time the side wanting this formula the game has been following to change is also a minority.

The actual majority of players are indifferent. They simply play the game as it is not saying anything or making any waves or ripples. They play it as it is as long as they get an amount of enjoyment from it they feel is sufficient to pay a sub for (provided they aren't just playing the free version). They stick around because it's something they can play with their friends either IRL or the ones they made in game. There are also those that stick around simply because they have a completionist mentality and want to see how the game ends. The actual majority will just take any changes that happen and roll with it making any adjustments needed to keep going as they have been.