Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[ReynTime]

His comment is bogus plain and simple.
He talks about the weight a single player's death has, yet Savage is still a thing. No one is asking for 3 savage tier boss fights for 4 players. Harder and challenging doesn't necessarily mean "Mythic+" or "Savage". And they've done 8p dungeons in the past, which were only ruined by being not balanced for 8 players properly and being loaded with cutscenes.
In fact the only ones imposing the 4-p limit to dungeons are the developers themselves. But oh well this is Yoshida for you. The man who would rather abandon an idea entirely if they execute it poorly instead of refining it, since 1.19 (you don't see hamlet defences or the bonus chest system anywhere do you?), unless it's another version of Diadem.
Moreover theorical optional dungeons need to set themselves apart from trials and normal raids (which are just more trials let's be honest) and even from alliance raids. There should be more to how they're designed that makes them distinct, and the challenge shouldn't all fall on the bosses or even the combat.

[Snorky]

Time to repost YoshiP's interview from last May.

I think what people are missing in this quote is what is the underlying goal of including as many types of players as possible. This is the goal and focus. Being harder doesn't make something better. He wants 4 man accessable to all types of players.

[Garnix]

To be fair I think his response is also related to how people ask him about it...
Every single time dungeon difficulty is being brought up, they are like "You know, WoW have this Mythic+ system" or "Savage raiders would love more challenging content for small parties".

edit:
Yes of course he wants 4-man content to be accessible. Which is fine for the story and leveling. But the max-level 4 man content has no reason to be easier than the leveling dungeons. Over-gearing in those is ridiculous in my opinion.

[HappyHubris]

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution.

That's....the entire point of tough content.

It's like saying that adding peppers to a spicy dish is to be avoided, because it might end up spicy.

[Snorky]

Still missing the point, by accessible it also means enough people playing the same content. So q times are not ridiculous. There is challenging content in this game if you bite the bullet and do it.

[Nyarlha]

Yes of course he wants 4-man content to be accessible. Which is fine for the story and leveling. But the max-level 4 man content has no reason to be easier than the leveling dungeons. Over-gearing in those is ridiculous in my opinion.

Then again, if upgrading your gear made no difference in dungeons, people would complain about it. Improving your gear and stats are a mainstay of RPGs after all.

[Garnix]

Then again, if upgrading your gear made no difference in dungeons, people would complain about it. Improving your gear and stats are a mainstay of RPGs after all.

True, but I think there is a difference between improving gear and being 40iLvl above the min requirement though...

[Nyarlha]

True, but I think there is a difference between improving gear and being 40iLvl above the min requirement though...

I think it can be said that gear scales way too fast for sure. Hopefully the incoming stat squish and scaling changes do something to alleviate this in a way.

[Roda]

To suggest any which will inevitably be shot down by the stagnating crowd, one needs to understand the dungeons best attitudes are explorative content and teamwork. With these fundamentals you can have a lot of avenues.

Midpull mechanics, Example being but not limited to like stack markers doing a pull so your not just grabbing a crowd and spamming your aoe. Ghmliyt sorta does this.

Unscripted mechanics, have it randomize to adjust not to order but to familiarity so you need to watch which action is a tank buster which action is raid wide and which action does unique stuff

Telegraph thru mob action, example would Be skalla where the final boss does actions similar based on its anatomy like slashes and beams

Hazards and traps. I think Hullisland had bear traps and Dona castle had turrets to walk around with your trash, so you needed to dance around it if you carried it further. Autumn vale had vents and poisons so you couldn’t just stand still

Key hunting, Totorak and Hakkue manor had these while one is universally hated and the other is a joy to do more so since it’s the first dungeons to do as jobs

Roaming hostile mobs, again hakkue manor did this and to lesser extent long step and greater extent crowds of roamers like vale. This would require The Tank to actually watch out and either collect them or take the mobs away from others

Intractables, like the cannons in Stone vigil where you needed to use outside means to destroy the boss or mobs

Prioritized mobs, this one is for the DPS, have them focus on vital mobs like the retrain collar in Baelsar’s wall, the final stingers in quarn or the Banish III casters in Pharos

Hazardous Dots, like the frostbite in The Burn, or several poisons from Ampdapor. As healers and when everything is fine, that should be a nother thing to watch out for and keep in check it or your making your job more difficult.

Open areas, long step dark hold and vale work against the W2W boring tactic due to their respected rooms. This would complete flip the monotony.

Sad thing is these have all been done before and the best suggestion the hyper casuals have in this thread is play something else and let the bland content rot.

All of this is great, but we gotta make the point that without mechanic layering those mechanics can become mindless gimmicks (like snowcloak's frost). Having to think about how ro deal with one mechanic alone, another mechanic alone, and how to deal with both of them happening at the same time breaks up the monotony of "I guess I'll heal a little harder"

[Likethewind]

Can we go back to 1.0 style dungeons?