Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Jirah]

If you want harder content, there are extreme and savage runs. We don't need things to be any more difficult in these dungeons as it is. Having new people run a dungeon in minimum gear is tough enough. Tanks have a tendency to get stuck in this mode of tanking to the north and not adjusting for certain mechs. (Tycoon and Amhuluk come to mind).

The most reductive argument among the crowds “go do ex if you want hard content blah blah blah”

A blatant misunderstanding of the issues at hand with a twitch of “think of the children! ..I mean new players” for the 80th time we don’t desire gods dammed “Twinning Savage” where you need a static to clear, it’s just dungeons are immensely on the handicap side so much so that it just a corridor with aoes most of the time. We want variety, we want more mechanics, we want the old ARR philosophy where Tanks needed to be a tank and guide, we want DPS to have some weight and responsibilities! We don’t want dungeons to stagnate and Rot

[Kleeya]

Years later, way before the trust system, i still remember how, when i was a new player, i was wondering why i didn't get this Sastasha exploration achievement. It's by looking at the map that i did understand "oh i see, we did get in a straight line from point A to point B, and did not enter the optional rooms at all. They wanted to be out of this as soon as possible".

If even a new player who know nearly nothing of the game can figure on his first dungeon that there is a "gogogo rush rush rush" mentality in the community, the problem is rooted way deeper than you think. Having a chance that an optionnal boss can appear somewhere or getting more gils is not gonna cut it for people thinking that losing 30 seconds in a dungeon will ruin their day, while they already have millions of gils on their account.

With linear easy dungeons, SE did give the players what they want. I don't think it will change soon. If you want something a bit different, wait for the next palace of the dead. And even then you will end up in some groups rushing to the exit as quickly as possible, not caring that you want to search an optional treasure in a distant room.

[SamsaraTrickstar]

They should just stop doing them, honestly, given by the responses dungeons complaints get from the average XIV player.

They just want to do their dailies in a hurry to cross off items from their chores checklist required to get weekly capped currencies for gear with item level they won't use. So let's just not even bother with adds and the atrocious hallway design, just have them be 3 bosses and with checkpoints between.

After all, adds don't matter. Dead-ends with chests don't matter. Dungeon mechanics are bad. And I just want to hurry up, get my glamour and gpose. The least amount I can dedicate to, eyuck, doing combat and exploration in a japanese RPG, the better.


All the pve content design issues XIV has is resulted from players feeling entitled to rewards they have objectively no need for and then the developers bending to their entitlement. Players mistaking rewards for a "right" rather than something you're supposed to earn by clearing optional challenges.

i think you got a great point to the root of the problem. i will add to it SE bands to the cry's of people that are not willing to do more that walk. 2.x to hard dungeons that was nerfed.

[SamsaraTrickstar]

Since how I believe M+ destroyed WoW (yeah, it did bring in more money in short term), I don’t want that in this game.

why so much people here bosses over WOW? WOW is a trash game now and to me was from day1. just add a harder room to each dungeon no one forced to do but can if they want. you doing it here an extra glam. or what ever it will give. onlly problem peopel will need to communicate and we know its a forbade thing in ff14

If you want harder content, there are extreme and savage runs. We don't need things to be any more difficult in these dungeons as it is. Having new people run a dungeon in minimum gear is tough enough. Tanks have a tendency to get stuck in this mode of tanking to the north and not adjusting for certain mechs. (Tycoon and Amhuluk come to mind).

we talking about end game dungeons so what new players. new lvl 80/90 players? at what point will it start to be ok for people to know to do a 1 2 3 combo and not stand in an aoe?

Years later, way before the trust system, i still remember how, when i was a new player, i was wondering why i didn't get this Sastasha exploration achievement. It's by looking at the map that i did understand "oh i see, we did get in a straight line from point A to point B, and did not enter the optional rooms at all. They wanted to be out of this as soon as possible".

If even a new player who know nearly nothing of the game can figure on his first dungeon that there is a "gogogo rush rush rush" mentality in the community, the problem is rooted way deeper than you think. Having a chance that an optionnal boss can appear somewhere or getting more gils is not gonna cut it for people thinking that losing 30 seconds in a dungeon will ruin their day, while they already have millions of gils on their account.

With linear easy dungeons, SE did give the players what they want. I don't think it will change soon. If you want something a bit different, wait for the next palace of the dead. And even then you will end up in some groups rushing to the exit as quickly as possible, not caring that you want to search an optional treasure in a distant room.

problem is this is not what people want . they want to get the free tomes and go afk in the city talk to FC members in discord. You be surprised to find out how much players hate to play the game and in it for the looks. its the cool thing to play this days.

[Poporito_Popoto]

problem is this is not what people want . they want to get the free tomes and go afk in the city talk to FC members in discord. You be surprised to find out how much players hate to play the game and in it for the looks. its the cool thing to play this days.

Why are you bothered by what other people like to do?

The most reductive argument among the crowds “go do ex if you want hard content blah blah blah”

A blatant misunderstanding of the issues at hand with a twitch of “think of the children! ..I mean new players” for the 80th time we don’t desire gods dammed “Twinning Savage” where you need a static to clear, it’s just dungeons are immensely on the handicap side so much so that it just a corridor with aoes most of the time. We want variety, we want more mechanics, we want the old ARR philosophy where Tanks needed to be a tank and guide, we want DPS to have some weight and responsibilities! We don’t want dungeons to stagnate and Rot

No dungeon will be interesting when you run it 50+ times, so no point in wasting dev time for that.

[Kacho_Nacho]

aurum vale... isn't exactly what i had in mind... still too few adds.
but i guess that wouldn't work in this 'fast, go go, faster' community.... people would have to learn having more patience again xD

Too few? Seems to me that place is chock full of adds.

Anywho to quote Lucky_Cj, "I love the idea of Aurum Vale 2." That's exactly what we need. Instances where you have to really be on your toes to get through it.

I'm not talking about bosses with super difficult mechanics. I'm talking about places were you need just good old fashioned dungeoneering skills. Things like being aware of aggro radii, needing to use crowd control and interrupting abilities, etc...

I also love Aurum Vale.

It's a real shame that dungeons have become so linear and streamlined. For whatever reason, the development team appear convinced that the best way forward is to avoid any optional paths or objectives. I don't think it's true that players would only ever focus on the quickest, most efficient route to completion. It's just a matter of making it worthwhile to go off of the beaten track. Maybe that means a chance of a rare enemy appearing, or a treasure chest full of gil that disappears if a randomised puzzle isn't solved correctly. There's a lot of things that could be done, really - and many other MMO's have embraced such design choices.

I agree. In fact, that's why I love PotD*. It's not linear. Every floor has a random layout and you have floor traps, patrolling mobs, and trapped chests. It's unpredictable, except for the bosses.

I kind of disagree about players not seeking the quickest, most efficient routes. Many individuals are like that; but, not all. Some of us like exploring and taking our time to enjoy the experience.

They should just stop doing them, honestly, given by the responses dungeons complaints get from the average XIV player.

They just want to do their dailies in a hurry to cross off items from their chores checklist required to get weekly capped currencies for gear with item level they won't use. So let's just not even bother with adds and the atrocious hallway design, just have them be 3 bosses and with checkpoints between.

After all, adds don't matter. Dead-ends with chests don't matter. Dungeon mechanics are bad. And I just want to hurry up, get my glamour and gpose. The least amount I can dedicate to, eyuck, doing combat and exploration in a japanese RPG, the better.

All the pve content design issues XIV has is resulted from players feeling entitled to rewards they have objectively no need for and then the developers bending to their entitlement. Players mistaking rewards for a "right" rather than something you're supposed to earn by clearing optional challenges.

Things aren't quite that bad. But, I do agree there are some vocal players out there who are very self-entitled.

But, I feel it is up to us players, who do enjoy adventuring in a world where dungeons challenge us, to speak out and let Square Enix know what we want. If we just remain silent, dungeons will continue to be streamlined and simplified.

On a side note, I miss your contributions to the Show Off Your Lalafell thread, Reyn. You are a talented digital artist and I was impressed by your works.

Dungeon are fluff content and will remain as such.

Bologna. Dungeons are as big a part of the adventurer's experience as the story line, side quests, and the world in general.

No dungeon will be interesting when you run it 50+ times, so no point in wasting dev time for that.

That is true. But, the devs have ways to keep players on our toes. Just as with PotD, they could change the floor plans. They could change the mobs or even the boss mechanics with each new party.

We just have to let Square Enix know we want more interesting dungeons. They aren't mind readers.




*If Square Enix came up with an MMO which was nothing but one infinite Deep Dungeon like Palace of the Dead, I'd buy it in an instant.

[RitsukoSonoda]

So we need Endwalker to start off with Aurum Vale EX as it's first leveling duty tied to the MSQ and it to have 500% more fight and environmental mechanics?

IMO the 4 player duties and also the solo MSQ duties should be conditioning players to be able to do the "harder" content. We shouldn't be dumbing these down to appease a tiny fragment of the player base that want everything handed to them as long as they press 1 or 2 buttons to avoid getting kicked for inactivity.

[Absurdity]

If even a new player who know nearly nothing of the game can figure on his first dungeon that there is a "gogogo rush rush rush" mentality in the community, the problem is rooted way deeper than you think. Having a chance that an optionnal boss can appear somewhere or getting more gils is not gonna cut it for people thinking that losing 30 seconds in a dungeon will ruin their day, while they already have millions of gils on their account.

One of the major reasons for the "gotta go fast" mentality is the reward structure. You don't get anything useful out of the dungeon, you only get something useful for finishing it. With a reward system like that of course people will want to spend as little time as possible in there because time is literally currency earned.

[Vrankyl]

For those who don't think players will laser focus the quickest and most optimal route well... I hope you get to keep your innocence. The reality of it is that optimal and speed is the name of the game these days. Let's just take a look over to WoW with it's M+ content. Not only is it timed to make it harder (which encourages fast routes) but tanks are practically required to be running an Addon that calculates the most optimal route in higher keys. Unfortunately, if SE were to create harder dungeons stuff like this would start cropping up here. Maybe not in the form of addons, but this time rather guides and required pathing.

As far the harking back to the days of ARR Hard modes... we remember these very differently. Trying to get a group to complete Arum Vale and Pharos Sirius Hard pre nerf was... good luck. More often than not you'd go through at least three tanks in Arum Vale before one stuck it out, and getting a group to finish Pharos Sirius was hell. I don't know about you, but for me the rewards would have to justify the pain one would be required to go through to finish. While such an experience can be fun with friends, the moment you toss in a pug it is game over.

[LioJen]

*If Square Enix came up with an MMO which was nothing but one infinite Deep Dungeon like Palace of the Dead, I'd buy it in an instant.

I'll second that, PotD is the most fun content I have found in the game since they changed Frontlines. I hope they expand and add more to it in EW.