Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Steelbreaker25]

Same can be said about msq, beast tribes, fates, gsc and raids. What they call no arguments like yours agin? Strawman?

No it isn't. Growing tired of running the same content over and over is pretty normal for people. Adding 1-2 extra dungeons to the roulette won't make it any less frustrating to run after a few weeks. This is why a lot of people hop on hunt trains so they don't have to run roulettes.

[Jirah]

Hot take but Aurum Vale is only hated because you have to try. You don’t even have to focus much on any dungeon as a tank and DPS responsibilities? Nty just let me spam aoes.

[Deveryn]

If you want harder content, there are extreme and savage runs. We don't need things to be any more difficult in these dungeons as it is. Having new people run a dungeon in minimum gear is tough enough. Tanks have a tendency to get stuck in this mode of tanking to the north and not adjusting for certain mechs. (Tycoon and Amhuluk come to mind).

[Jirah]

If you want harder content, there are extreme and savage runs. We don't need things to be any more difficult in these dungeons as it is. Having new people run a dungeon in minimum gear is tough enough. Tanks have a tendency to get stuck in this mode of tanking to the north and not adjusting for certain mechs. (Tycoon and Amhuluk come to mind).

The most reductive argument among the crowds “go do ex if you want hard content blah blah blah”

A blatant misunderstanding of the issues at hand with a twitch of “think of the children! ..I mean new players” for the 80th time we don’t desire gods dammed “Twinning Savage” where you need a static to clear, it’s just dungeons are immensely on the handicap side so much so that it just a corridor with aoes most of the time. We want variety, we want more mechanics, we want the old ARR philosophy where Tanks needed to be a tank and guide, we want DPS to have some weight and responsibilities! We don’t want dungeons to stagnate and Rot

[Kleeya]

Years later, way before the trust system, i still remember how, when i was a new player, i was wondering why i didn't get this Sastasha exploration achievement. It's by looking at the map that i did understand "oh i see, we did get in a straight line from point A to point B, and did not enter the optional rooms at all. They wanted to be out of this as soon as possible".

If even a new player who know nearly nothing of the game can figure on his first dungeon that there is a "gogogo rush rush rush" mentality in the community, the problem is rooted way deeper than you think. Having a chance that an optionnal boss can appear somewhere or getting more gils is not gonna cut it for people thinking that losing 30 seconds in a dungeon will ruin their day, while they already have millions of gils on their account.

With linear easy dungeons, SE did give the players what they want. I don't think it will change soon. If you want something a bit different, wait for the next palace of the dead. And even then you will end up in some groups rushing to the exit as quickly as possible, not caring that you want to search an optional treasure in a distant room.

[Absurdity]

If even a new player who know nearly nothing of the game can figure on his first dungeon that there is a "gogogo rush rush rush" mentality in the community, the problem is rooted way deeper than you think. Having a chance that an optionnal boss can appear somewhere or getting more gils is not gonna cut it for people thinking that losing 30 seconds in a dungeon will ruin their day, while they already have millions of gils on their account.

One of the major reasons for the "gotta go fast" mentality is the reward structure. You don't get anything useful out of the dungeon, you only get something useful for finishing it. With a reward system like that of course people will want to spend as little time as possible in there because time is literally currency earned.

[RitsukoSonoda]

So we need Endwalker to start off with Aurum Vale EX as it's first leveling duty tied to the MSQ and it to have 500% more fight and environmental mechanics?

IMO the 4 player duties and also the solo MSQ duties should be conditioning players to be able to do the "harder" content. We shouldn't be dumbing these down to appease a tiny fragment of the player base that want everything handed to them as long as they press 1 or 2 buttons to avoid getting kicked for inactivity.

[Roda]

I think this thread could've been combined with the other one on the first page. but w/e

IMO the 4 player duties and also the solo MSQ duties should be conditioning players to be able to do the "harder" content. We shouldn't be dumbing these down to appease a tiny fragment of the player base that want everything handed to them as long as they press 1 or 2 buttons to avoid getting kicked for inactivity.

Also this.

We also need progression and gameplay based tutorials. Someone shouldn't be asking me how to get into savages and also "what is ogcd weaving" in the same breath. Skill acquisition and class / job quests should teach you basic game mechanics before you get into expansion content, and should not let you progress unless you can do a very basic thing. (like a milder form of fighting game combo training) The MSQ where you take minfilia's dagger needs to have you equip an item with materia slots and force you to go to a materia melder in a city to get your own gear melded, not just have some random goblin tell you that materia exists in their weird gobbytongue.

Proper tutorials, and casual scenarios where you can put your skills to the test is how you solve skill-based accessibility blocks


If some still think that's too demanding then trusts and very easy mode exist to carry them. Now more than ever is the perfect time to give the dungeons more teeth.

[LioJen]

I agree that mandatory tutorials go a long way to improving the average player. In many games you cannot progress to the next area until you complete the actions correctly and at least know what the buttons do. I would have loved for a real extended tutorial on how cooldowns and mitigations are supposed to be used, since this was my first MMO and the FF games in general are as far away from MMO gameplay as you can get.

Job quests would have been the perfect place for these, especially the ones that grant you a new ability. So far what I have found is that they give you a random fetch quest, give you three mobs to kill, then reward you with a new ability at the end. The quest has NOTHING to do with the ability itself, they do not show you how to use it or give any lore behind it, they do not even give you access to it until the quest is done. What a waste. The tooltips are not exactly comprehensive and some of them are just wrong.

But then again, the devs change each job's tool kit and even entire identity so often that they would have to remake half the tutorials every other patch

[RitsukoSonoda]

I agree that mandatory tutorials go a long way to improving the average player. In many games you cannot progress to the next area until you complete the actions correctly and at least know what the buttons do. I would have loved for a real extended tutorial on how cooldowns and mitigations are supposed to be used, since this was my first MMO and the FF games in general are as far away from MMO gameplay as you can get.

Job quests would have been the perfect place for these, especially the ones that grant you a new ability. So far what I have found is that they give you a random fetch quest, give you three mobs to kill, then reward you with a new ability at the end. The quest has NOTHING to do with the ability itself, they do not show you how to use it or give any lore behind it, they do not even give you access to it until the quest is done. What a waste. The tooltips are not exactly comprehensive and some of them are just wrong.

But then again, the devs change each job's tool kit and even entire identity so often that they would have to remake half the tutorials every other patch

Definitely in regards to using job quests as tutorials would run into issues. With the older jobs it would be due to changes made over time. However newer jobs have a much smaller quest line due to starting like 10 lvls behind the cap before the expansion was launched that added them. Back in ARR for example jobs had skills learned from lvl progression that were flagged as cross class and usable by other jobs because players had up to 5 empty slots they could assign one of these cross class skills to. However they changed it to what we have now because some of these later skills were so useful on other jobs that players started considering a job "gimped" if they didn't have them. Or Machanist I think has been overhauled in it's mechanics on every expansion resulting in skills and overall gameplay changing dramatically. SMN seems to be going through a large change with Endwalker as well. I may end up making another alt soon just to see how different the game is from a fresh start with all the changes that have happened over the years.