Materia: the new Armory System

[Coglin]

What's really unfortunate is that not many people seem to care about this issue. A lot of the forum-goers seem content complaining about the immediate (OMG WHY ISN'T PATCH 1.21 HERE YET) instead of discussing huge, long term problems that could really hinder the game. If people actually replied and discussed this to the point where it became a large enough thread to warrant attention, the devs could reanalyze the Materia system sooner, which would give them the most time to correct it. Otherwise, it'll become so integrated into the game that they won't modify/remove it, so the problems will persist.

I have to disagree based on the fact that there have ben about 8 threads of this discussion in the past 2 weeks.

Although, I have to admit, there havebeen twice as many to discuss (OMG WHY ISN'T PATCH 1.21 HERE YET) .......

Personally, I like the materia system as it "in general". For the most part, I feel the risk vs. reward is set about right with the low percentage of multiple melds set at what it is. I tend to over all, disagree with most of the debate against it.

Only imbalance I see with it at all, is in comparison to alot of the U/U gear, but I believe in the near future as we have more end game added, (I am hoping anyway) that SE and the gang will make the new U/U raid drops in a manner that sets a gap in there value from melded gear.

[Antipika]

My Response to Brannigan:



Proposal:



I feel, slightly, compelled to agree, Antipika, but one major issue stands keeps me from doing so:

There isn't the ability to do gear swaps in this game.

It's nice to have "unique" buffs on U/U gear that cannot be attained through materia, but what good does that do you if the stats on the materia'd gear are so much more diverse? If you can't swap gear, what do you prefer, as a mrd for example:

Being pretty good at taking dmg and really great at dealing tremendous dmg (options available to you, via materia)? or being able to do a "Blood Bath" for let's say a 500% increase in effectiveness? Now, obviously, you'd say "both" (the former during party play; and the latter during solo play), right? But what separates you from every other mrd? I'll tell you:

More than likely, it's always gonna be your U/U gear, cuz w/ enough gil (in a materia-inclusive system), anyone can be as good as anyone else. And when you take away the "competition," you take away the fun, and that overwhelming sensation you get when you accomplish something that so many others failed to do. And if you remove U/U gear from the picture (in terms of it's application during party play), you remove the opportunity for "bragging rights," which is a core aspect of the MMO experience.

U/U gear, obtained from EXTREMELY difficult fights/quests/missions, or w/e else, is always going to be a more compelling incentive than getting enough gil to *buy* end game gear. It's a really depressing prospect.

It's all about abilities you are willing to add on the U/U gear. Also U/U must have good stats + abilities. DAoC had no gear swap, but U/U gear had special effects that couldn't be obtained on crafted gear.

For example: Instant MP recovery or Instant DMG Absorb shield (like SS) etc.

Having such effects on U/U gear make them more desirable versus crafted gear, yet doesn't make them mandatory. It's all about balance. The average player will still be able to have decent stats, while someone who did endgame and all will have good stats + special abilities.

[Sol_Aureus]

I have to disagree based on the fact that there have ben about 8 threads of this discussion in the past 2 weeks.

Although, I have to admit, there havebeen twice as many to discuss (OMG WHY ISN'T PATCH 1.21 HERE YET) .......

Personally, I like the materia system as it "in general". For the most part, I feel the risk vs. reward is set about right with the low percentage of multiple melds set at what it is. I tend to over all, disagree with most of the debate against it.

Only imbalance I see with it at all, is in comparison to alot of the U/U gear, but I believe in the near future as we have more end game added, (I am hoping anyway) that SE and the gang will make the new U/U raid drops in a manner that sets a gap in there value from melded gear.

I disagree, there really hasn't been a thread like this that discusses the main problems with Materia, most of the threads regarding Materia are the "U/U Gear should be meldable" threads.

Just to be sure though, I looked at the last 240 most recent threads (the 240th one had the last reply in the thread dated at 2-11-12, exactly 2 weeks ago) to see what Materia based threads there were:

• Dropped Items and Materia
  • This is the closest to this thread I could find. Still, it's mostly discussing the fact that U/U gear should be meldable, and that would solve a lot of the problems (which I disagree with. If they made U/U gear single meldable it'd make things bearable and U/U gear would actually get some use, but again the problem is double+ melding certain materia will FAR outperform anything that U/U gear will give.)
  
  
• Upgrading U/U items to make them better
  • A refute to the "make U/U items meldable" argument with a different solution. Seems like an interesting idea, but the thread doesn't address the problems with the Materia system, just a way to work around it, so some of the problems will still persist.
  
  
• Materia stats random
  • Someone with a terrible, terrible suggestion that would only augment the current problems with the Materia system to make it more luck based.
  
  
• Materia Stacking (Inventory Killer)
  • Thread about how Materia should be stackable to save inventory. Doesn't address the problems with the Materia system.
  
  
• U/U Gear A reason why we cannot meld. (long post)
  • Another thread focusing on the "U/U gear being meldable" argument. Again, doesn't address the main problems with the Materia system itself.

So while I can see that it seems like this is just another Materia thread, I did not intend it to be. I intended for this to be a discussion thread about the Materia system in general and the innate problems that it has just by its nature. None of the other threads that I've seen address this in detail, so I made one.

While there are many ways that the Materia system could stay intact but be improved upon to become an "accepted" system within the game, it wouldn't be enjoyable in my opinion. It'd just be something that the FFXIV community would have accepted as a part of the game and will deal with, and players should never have to "deal with" a core mechanic of the game in that manner.

There's time to change it, FFXIV is in a unique situation where we don't have to lie down and accept it like "oh well, this is just how the game was designed." FFXIV is changing, and now is the time to make our voices and opinions heard, before 2.0. Before it is too late.

[Brannigan]

* Dropped Items and Materia
o This is the closest to this thread I could find. Still, it's mostly discussing the fact that U/U gear should be meldable, and that would solve a lot of the problems (which I disagree with. If they made U/U gear single meldable it'd make things bearable and U/U gear would actually get some use, but again the problem is double+ melding certain materia will FAR outperform anything that U/U gear will give.)

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system) a little bit in there, but that thread was basically ruined by a few retards. I tried to keep the OP focused on a specific goal since I thought it was a little more likely than getting rid of multi-melds. That said, I am of the opinion that the current materia system in general is broken and really bad for the game in the long term.

There's 2 ways to make the materia system good in my mind:

1) Everything gets 1 materia slot in 2.0. Multi-melds aren't possible and items with them have gone extinct.

or

2) Each item has a certain number of pre-set materia slots (For example: Ifrit's Bow has a Tier IV and a Tier III slot, Crab Bow has a Tier III slot and two Tier II slots). Melding has no chance of failure. Old multi-meld items are phased out.


I understand (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, so correct me if I'm wrong) you'd like to restrict melding to 1 only (which I agree with) but not allow it on U/U items. While this would be acceptable to me I don't see it as ideal. Materia is a neat concept and adds a nice level of customization to gear. It also gives some incentive to going out and grinding a bit even at max level.


anyway I guess what i'm trying to say here is bump

[Sol_Aureus]

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system) a little bit in there, but that thread was basically ruined by a few retards. I tried to keep the OP focused on a specific goal since I thought it was a little more likely than getting rid of multi-melds. That said, I am of the opinion that the current materia system in general is broken and really bad for the game in the long term.

There's 2 ways to make the materia system good in my mind:

1) Everything gets 1 materia slot in 2.0. Multi-melds aren't possible and items with them have gone extinct.

or

2) Each item has a certain number of pre-set materia slots (For example: Ifrit's Bow has a Tier IV and a Tier III slot, Crab Bow has a Tier III slot and two Tier II slots). Melding has no chance of failure. Old multi-meld items are phased out.


I understand (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, so correct me if I'm wrong) you'd like to restrict melding to 1 only (which I agree with) but not allow it on U/U items. While this would be acceptable to me I don't see it as ideal. Materia is a neat concept and adds a nice level of customization to gear. It also gives some incentive to going out and grinding a bit even at max level.


anyway I guess what i'm trying to say here is bump

Thanks for your input.

Honestly, I really don't have a specific ideal fix. My suggestion was to have multi-slotting removed, just because it's the simplest solution and easiest to balance, in my opinion. I would prefer U/U items be meldable as well under this system, however it wouldn't be the end of the world if they weren't meldable either as long as their stats made up for it.

Your idea is pretty interesting, however the problem I see with it is that you rarely get lower tier stuff (like II) from your high level items, so you would have to buy stuff that's lower level to get the proper tier Materia. Still, the idea is good in theory, and with some tweaking it could work wonderfully.

My main point in this thread is that Materia as it is right now is a really bad system. There are many, many, many ways to go about fixing it, but we need to let the devs know that it's a problem first.

[Coglin]

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system)

Thanks for your input honestly, I really don't have a specific ideal fix.

You guys post this as if its the general populations views as well. I don't believe most players feel mulit-melds is a problem in the least bit. If most people do not believe it is broken, then there is no ideal fix, or any fix for that matter.

[Sol_Aureus]

You guys post this as if its the general populations views as well. I don't believe most players feel mulit-melds is a problem in the least bit. If most people do not believe it is broken, then there is no ideal fix, or any fix for that matter.

If that's the case, I'd honestly like to hear their input as to why they think the points I raised aren't going to be an issue and the Materia system is fine as-is. I've had my opinions changed before because of responses, and if people bring up valid points that I can't refute, then I'll probably concede my point.

But that hasn't happened yet. So until it does, I will continue trying to bring this to the attention of the developers.

[Brannigan]

You guys post this as if its the general populations views as well. I don't believe most players feel mulit-melds is a problem in the least bit. If most people do not believe it is broken, then there is no ideal fix, or any fix for that matter.

I don't know, I never really tried to imply that. The "we" in that is referring to the people in the thread I was talking about. If I felt like the general population recognized the problem I wouldn't bother replying because the forums would have already taken care of it. If I had to guess I'd say that people are either still in "wait and see" mode or they're happy that they have good gear right now and aren't really thinking about what future items are going to look like.

I think that AF/Aurum Vale/Cutter's Whatever gear is really going to be a tipping point. If everyone is still running around in their crafted generics with crazy materia deep into 1.21 then I think you'll see more people talking about it. Likewise, if AF is good enough that people don't even bother with materia anymore, then that will probably get people talking.

[Aviny]

I think that AF/Aurum Vale/Cutter's Whatever gear is really going to be a tipping point. If everyone is still running around in their crafted generics with crazy materia deep into 1.21 then I think you'll see more people talking about it. Likewise, if AF is good enough that people don't even bother with materia anymore, then that will probably get people talking.

I think that SE wont implement AF being better than normal slotted gear because it is all on chance, and they don't want people walking around with the same gear. They will have AF to be good enough to have as a secondary classes gear but our current slotted gear will be way better even if it looks cool.

There is no way SE will have AF ARC gloves implemented with 100+ Crit nor will they add a CON head piece with 50+ Healing Magic Potency. I guess some parts of the gear will be better because you can only slot so much into certain items...but it wont be good enough to surpass my current slotted gear nor others that have better stats than I do.

If SE would happen to add gear that will far surpass most of our current gear it would have to be really hard to get as it was in 11.

[Khal_Drogo]

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system) a little bit in there, but that thread was basically ruined by a few retards. I tried to keep the OP focused on a specific goal since I thought it was a little more likely than getting rid of multi-melds. That said, I am of the opinion that the current materia system in general is broken and really bad for the game in the long term.

There's 2 ways to make the materia system good in my mind:

1) Everything gets 1 materia slot in 2.0. Multi-melds aren't possible and items with them have gone extinct.

or

2) Each item has a certain number of pre-set materia slots (For example: Ifrit's Bow has a Tier IV and a Tier III slot, Crab Bow has a Tier III slot and two Tier II slots). Melding has no chance of failure. Old multi-meld items are phased out.

I understand (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, so correct me if I'm wrong) you'd like to restrict melding to 1 only (which I agree with) but not allow it on U/U items. While this would be acceptable to me I don't see it as ideal. Materia is a neat concept and adds a nice level of customization to gear. It also gives some incentive to going out and grinding a bit even at max level.


anyway I guess what i'm trying to say here is bump

I like your option 2, so I highlighted in my quote of your post. The ONLY reason I don't agree w/ Sol on the idea to completely abolish the system is for this single reason:

-Because it would be sad to see something that contributes to player uniqueness go to waste.

I remember how fun it was comparing my thf to other ppl's thf on XI. Some ppl chose a full accy build w/ some str and attk; some chose all haste and low delay. Others, for WS, chose a pure DEX build and accy, while some chose DEX and AGI w/ only a few slots for accy, and so on.

The materia system definitely needs a LOT of adjusting, though. I absolutely HATE the variation of TIERS (16-20 for single stats, 50-70 for hp, 6-10 for multiple attribute types, etc.). That really needs to go. And the failure thing should go as well. LUCK is the single WORST aspect of gameplay in any platform (MMO, RPG, FPS, or w/e). The more we can do to eliminate luck from the equation, the better.