Dark Knight Megathread

[Anhra]

If i had any complains about Dark Knight, it would be the following Abilities even being a thing (warning: unpopular opinions incoming): The Blackest Night and Delirium.

I dont think i need to explain any reason why anyone sane would not dislike Delirium, as mentioned already, its just Inner Release in disguise and that thing belongs to either WAR or into the trash. Personally, i'd rather wish that Dark Knight had something more unique instead of this. If i had to make a suggestion, then i would say to replace it with something similar to Last Resort from FFXI, where the DRK gets +15% Damage up and -15% defense (can only be used below 50% HP and with a somewhat long cooldown, to balance it out a little) which lasts until either the DRK dies or goes back to over 50% HP.

as for Blackest Night, i think it isnt a Ability a Dark Knight should have. It's not that is by any means a bad Ability, but it is something that conflicts with the Ideology of the Job. Instead of it being a Shield, make it a Buff that can be used on a allied target for which the Dark Knight is able to take the full damage of the next hit once during its duration.

"But Anhra, a tank is suppoest to stay alive and not to get himself killed with his own Abilities!". I know, but hear me out on this. My point with those kind of ideas is, that Dark Knight's gimmick should be something like "gets stronger the closer to death it is and that Power comes at a prize". This could be backed up further by a trait called "Desperate Blows" for which the DRK gets increased dmg when low on HP at the cost of having a longer GCD on the basic Rotation (but also stronger MP/HP regen effects from Syphon Strike and Soul Eater).

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

"But Anhra, a tank is suppoest to stay alive and not to get himself killed with his own Abilities!". I know, but hear me out on this. My point with those kind of ideas is, that Dark Knight's gimmick should be something like "gets stronger the closer to death it is and that Power comes at a prize". This could be backed up further by a trait called "Desperate Blows" for which the DRK gets increased dmg when low on HP at the cost of having a longer GCD on the basic Rotation (but also stronger MP/HP regen effects from Syphon Strike and Soul Eater).

Hence why it's a terrible idea. Having your damage output tied to being closer to death when another role's job is seeking to keep you alive & healthy is asking for all types of ridiculous arguments to erupt, and just make healers despise playing with DRKs.

Not to mention the very nature of wanting lower HP will lead DRKs to want to MT or to intentionally eat AOEs to lower their health pool. For a tank, it's extremely bad design for any damage source to be tied to their HP. Even on a dps that doesn't have to actively absorb damage tying damage to HP would be a bad idea.

Not to mention how would you balance it? If the DRK's damage is balanced around being in this close to death state, you'd have a severely underpowered tank when its not, compared to 3 tanks that do just fine at any HP level. Balance its dps outside of this near death state and DRK will utterly annihilate the other 3 tanks dps wise when it suddenly comes in with huge damage boosts.

Trying to bring DRK's ideology from other FF games is pointless here. DRK is a tank in FF14; it's ideology in previous games simply doesn't work on a tank job.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh yeah, I was just imagining it in game and how much I would personally enjoy it. Of course, it would require some sort of revamp of the entire kit (which again, I would love but the job doesn't need another rework atm) so I don't think we'll ever really see it again. One can dream though.

I think we've long since gone into the era in which dreaming about the job is more fun and exciting than actually playing it, so that's quite understandable.

Feel free to use me for a sounding board for those larger pipedream reworks, btw.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

If i had any complains about Dark Knight, it would be the following Abilities even being a thing (warning: unpopular opinions incoming): The Blackest Night and Delirium.

What I do not like about The Blackest Night is the current if-broken bonus. I view a protective barrier that needs to be broken, for a offensive gain, as a liability and a bad design, while I think that a defensive action should not have a liability connection to offense.

My own thoughts on the if-broken bonus are that it should either be a further defensive buff, or a self-heal effect.

As for Anhra's idea, I think that.. at the least, to convert The Blackest Night from defensive to supportive, could be a idea of interest... While, as for Anhra's idea in and of itself, since Paladin has a "take damage intended for the target ally" ability, it is not as if that idea for The Blackest Night would not work...

In regard to for the Dark Knight to have a longer GCD than the normal 2.50... I would only agree with that if Dark Knight has a lot of good oGCD options, to the point of double-weave or single-weave between every GCD, since that would make double-weave more or ease; and the illusion of speed from oGCD weave, is also better than speed from faster GCD, any way...

For a example... 2.40 GCD and double-weave as a constant, between every single GCD, would create a illusion of speed that would be a approximate of around one attack every 0.80 seconds, to which GCD can never be brought that low, and that would be one-fifth of a second faster than literal DPS.
In the case of a GCD extension, the approximate speed, I think.. would only increase to around one attack every 0.90 seconds, which is still faster than GCD could ever go, and still faster than literal DPS, so I would be fine with it.

As a side-note.. I think that single-weave feels a bit too slow, except for Monk.

I think we've long since gone into the era in which dreaming about the job is more fun and exciting than actually playing it, so that's quite understandable.

...Last, I hate how true this is... I have far more fun to work on and put progress into my Dark Knight re-design/re-work pet project, than I ever did when I play the game as the Dark Knight.

[Anhra]

Hence why it's a terrible idea. Having your damage output tied to being closer to death when another role's job is seeking to keep you alive & healthy is asking for all types of ridiculous arguments to erupt, and just make healers despise playing with DRKs.

Not to mention the very nature of wanting lower HP will lead DRKs to want to MT or to intentionally eat AOEs to lower their health pool. For a tank, it's extremely bad design for any damage source to be tied to their HP. Even on a dps that doesn't have to actively absorb damage tying damage to HP would be a bad idea.

Not to mention how would you balance it? If the DRK's damage is balanced around being in this close to death state, you'd have a severely underpowered tank when its not, compared to 3 tanks that do just fine at any HP level. Balance its dps outside of this near death state and DRK will utterly annihilate the other 3 tanks dps wise when it suddenly comes in with huge damage boosts.

As a Tank in general, you have by the norm, 3 Buttons that serve to reduce incoming damage, as well as a "i cant die now - button". If Living Dead gets a proper Rework on this, i see no issues with the idea i mentioned. The Point of a Playstyle like this is to reward People knowing when to take a risk, and when you should not. And keep in mind that a DRK wont stay ever for long in that state of being low HP, since both Healers, as well as the boosted HP recovery from Soul Eater, will bring him eventually back to +50% HP. And if that trait proves to be too Overpowered regardless, Numbers can still be adjusted on the matter at hand.

[Shurrikhan]

I view a protective barrier that needs to be broken, for a offensive gain, as a liability and a bad design, while I think that a defensive action should not have a liability connection to offense.

Just some few cents:

Personally, I wouldn't mind that (and it might even seem uniquely interesting) if we just had more means by which to manipulate whether it'd break (or, more directly put, whether we'd get its reward) and/or some real reason to use it even when it wouldn't necessarily break (such as for an anti-knockback or anti-debuff when used against lighter damage).

That doesn't have to come from anything specific to DRK, even. That could easily come from role-wide changes towards less passive mitigation and much more frequent and manipulable instances of active mitigation. That could come from fight design. That could come from mechanics specifically being skill-shots that you wouldn't normally intercept an additional count of (but against which TBN on the first prevents the vulnerability debuff). Etc., etc.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Just some few cents:

Personally, I wouldn't mind that (and it might even seem uniquely interesting) if we just had more means by which to manipulate whether it'd break (or, more directly put, whether we'd get its reward) and/or some real reason to use it even when it wouldn't necessarily break (such as for an anti-knockback or anti-debuff when used against lighter damage).

That doesn't have to come from anything specific to DRK, even. That could easily come from role-wide changes towards less passive mitigation and much more frequent and manipulable instances of active mitigation. That could come from fight design. That could come from mechanics specifically being skill-shots that you wouldn't normally intercept an additional count of (but against which TBN on the first prevents the vulnerability debuff). Etc., etc.

It could just have better design, yeh... My first two thoughts would be a "when the duration expires" if not broken bonus, as well as a if-broken bonus, and then just pick which effect you intend every The Blackest Night cast, while as for a means to control when the Barrier breaks, I just think of the fact that many other versions of the FF Franchise Dark Knight had self-harm skills, of which the Dark Knight could use such a action to break the barrier their self...

[Lyth]

Some things worth noting:
1) Reaper has an ability called Arcane Crest which is functionally similar to TBN.
Arcane Crest: Absorb incoming damage up to 10% of maximum HP. Duration 5 s, recast 30 s. If shield is nullified, all party members within 15 yalms gain Activated Crest (Restore target's HP every time they attack; 100 healing potency, Duration 15 seconds). If even a DPS job has something like this, it's not a stretch to see what direction they're going to be taking tanks.
2) "Upcoming Adjustments: Tank
Using defensive enhancements at optimal times will grant greater benefits."
2) While TBN was shown in the job action preview and seems to have the same duration, we didn't see it being used on another player.
3) The new bubble action can be used on both yourself (Endwalker Benchmark) and another player (job action preview).
4) PLD and WAR both have new self defensive buffs that could functionally occupy a similar space to TBN.

I suspect that we're going to see a few things here. TBN will probably replace Dark Mind as your low level defensive and probably be self-only without a cost. It'll probably have some sort of a buff tied in to breaking the bubble. TBN 2 will probably take over TBN's old role as a resource based defensive that gives you DA procs to stay DPS neutral. The fact that it has a 10 second duration attached means that it probably will be an weaker bubble than the original.

The one interesting thing about tying bubble breaks to dps and even utility buffs is that it devalues invulns. Your bubble is either redundant or it doesn't activate if you invuln it. This is the part of the live letter which both worried and intrigued me the most.

[Sazuzaki]

probably be self-only without a cost

Please no. If that's the case then I hope there will at least be a trait that makes TBN free at the level TBN 2 is unlocked. Just give me MP management at 50 or 60 man.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

As a Tank in general, you have by the norm, 3 Buttons that serve to reduce incoming damage, as well as a "i cant die now - button". If Living Dead gets a proper Rework on this, i see no issues with the idea i mentioned. The Point of a Playstyle like this is to reward People knowing when to take a risk, and when you should not. And keep in mind that a DRK wont stay ever for long in that state of being low HP, since both Healers, as well as the boosted HP recovery from Soul Eater, will bring him eventually back to +50% HP. And if that trait proves to be too Overpowered regardless, Numbers can still be adjusted on the matter at hand.

What risk & reward? You have setup a theoretical that fights not only against itself, but also fights against an entire other role. You think a DRK would even be staying <50% for longer than a GCD or two for this to matter in any capacity? Especially in raids when the moment you hit <50% you're basically getting tetra/Essential/Lustrate thrown at you? It's not a risk & reward, it's literally a repeat of the issues plaguing Living Dead, where the ability is literally out of your control. And just like Living Dead, such an ability on a tank is just going to cause arguments, issues, etc from DRKs who want to max their damage and healers who are keeping them healthy. It's clunky, it fights against itself, it fights against an entire role, and it fights against the intention of a tank to mitigate damage by rewarding you not mitigating damage to enter <50% faster and longer.

But really, it's irrelevant anyway. There's literally no way in a thousand years they'd implement an ability like that. The most they've ever done with tying stuff to HP is various 'potency decreases as HP goes down.' attacks, one of which had that effect stripped from it in SHB (Upheaval). the 'decreases' potency bit even shows the devs understand how ludicrous it is for a tank to get any sort of reward from being in a state that's opposite what they're supposed to be.