Dark Knight Megathread

[Benn]

although you bring some very nice points to the discussion, and you bring a fresh perspective of someone who played SHB DRK without the older context, I'll never understand this narrative that's been going around, in which people claim that fixing Living Dead will somehow magically solve all of DRK problems. you just stated 7 equally valid complaints that cover a wide range of issues, from AD potency to BW timing, to TBN at lower levels (a MUCH needed change), and yet you also say that fixing LD will somehow make all of these other problems more bearable?

I'm not saying that people shouldn't ask for a fix to LD (that skill needed an overhaul on release, or at least a visual aid for the party)
but fixing a broken invuln will not fix the atrocious leveling placement, the butchered and disjointed kit, nor will it somehow return to us the resource management playstyle that was robbed from us.

To make it more clear of what I meant: I know there are numerous of things that could use tweaks when it comes to DRK kits.

However those things (the 7 complaints you mentioned that I stated) are not essentially broken. They need tweaks. Absolutely, but - Delirium is not broken. It's great burst/DPS window. People just dislike it's long cooldown, spam and "time pressure" to get all 5 bloodsplitters in. However, it's not broken. It works, even if akward for some. It also does it job - being DPS burst.

Same with for example Dark Mind - it works, it does it job. It's could be better, but it's not broken. It reduces magical damage, fine, it does that. Abyssal Drain could use more CD or potency. Yes, but it still does what it does - AOE dmg and heal.

However, all those skills do not punish player for using them. And all of them do what they are suppose to do.

However - Living Dead does not do it's job. In 8/10 cases instead of SAVING a tank from death (which is it's supposed job as other tanks invluns), it just makes it occur 10s after. And that's not what you want from clutch skill. People rely on you as tank to survive, they think you can use your skill in time to buy extra time for party without dying. Like when one healer is dead and other healer is rising him - every other tank can pop his Invul and survive incoming Tankbuster/damage for enough time so healers can regroup, get back to game. Living Dead however DEPENDS on healer. It's pretty much not a tank ability, but tank/healer ability. Instead of draning tank cooldown and tank resources so tank can survive, it trains both tank resources, healer resources and it's a skill that makes both tank and healer work around it.

So that's why I think Living Dead is the most important step out of other steps. If tomorrow you would ask me if I wanted fixes to 7 abilities vs one fix to make LD a normal invul - I would take LD fix in hearbeat. Becasue it's the only one DRK ability that does not do what it's supposed to do and it's more of problem than help.

Alo you saying "Btuchered and disjointed kit" but that's your opinion. I like current kit, I like abilities, I like DRK overall. I would only tweak abilities that he already has. I do not believe he needs any more serious rework.

So out of all those tweaks - I think fixing Living Dead is most important.

[bundythenoob]

So that's why I think Living Dead is the most important step out of other steps. If tomorrow you would ask me if I wanted fixes to 7 abilities vs one fix to make LD a normal invul - I would take LD fix in hearbeat. Becasue it's the only one DRK ability that does not do what it's supposed to do and it's more of problem than help .

respectable opinion.

I can only say that in my opinion, tweaking the abilities so we use them more often and rearranging the leveling kit so we aren't stuck without tools that other tanks have at lower levels would do much more to boost the overall enjoyment out of DRK than to rework its invuln. As much as I would love a rework to LD, I'd MUCH rather get stalwart pre 50, a baby TBN pre 50, BW timing fixes, and much more. as much as I dislike Delirium as well, I wouldn't mind if it at least rewarded us with more mana to play with.

the problem might lie in the fact that we get free mana regen ticks now.

what if Darkside gave us a haste buff rather than damage, but locked us out of mana regen ticks? to make up for the lack of ticks then we could put more power into mana regen via our abilities akin to older DRK playstyle but without destroying the current kit. if that was done, then Blood Weapon, Stalwart, Delirium, and maybe even Carve and Spit could regen more than 600mp per attack. the reason I call it disjointed and butchered is not because the abilities don't work, but rather because the abilities that are supposed to be for "resource gathering" lack impact. this would also give us back that missing 10% damage by allowing us to use our abilities more often, which is something we both want out of current DRK.

[Baxcel]

Alo you saying "Btuchered and disjointed kit" but that's your opinion. I like current kit, I like abilities, I like DRK overall. I would only tweak abilities that he already has. I do not believe he needs any more serious rework.

I apologize for the bluntness but you don't like DRK.. you like WAR.. and that is sadly not what this class should be.. you've knows DRK for around 2 months or so and havnt even reached maxed level within the game..

DRK shouldn't be playing the way it currently plays it shouldn't be a carbon copy of the WAR class. It should play completely different from any other tank.. just as all the other tanks should play different then each other.

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

[Aword3213]

I apologize for the bluntness but you don't like DRK.. you like WAR.. and that is sadly not what this class should be.. you've knows DRK for around 2 months or so and havnt even reached maxed level within the game..

DRK shouldn't be playing the way it currently plays it shouldn't be a carbon copy of the WAR class. It should play completely different from any other tank.. just as all the other tanks should play different then each other.

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

[ArianeEwah]

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

Unfortunately, that "meme" can not die unless DRK and WAR are getting real unique designs!

Currently, we have Delirium as a inferior Inner Release, and this will not change in EW. On the contrary, for what we have seen in the job trailer, Delirium and IR are going to operate even MORE similar than before! SE confirmed that both will give 3 stacks of free beast and blood gauge weaponskills. At least today, IR negates the cost for Onslaught and Upheaval, yet that's going to be removed anyway. The only difference will be critDH for WAR and a tiny bit of MP for DRK.
Blood Weapon is also an inferior Infuriate with high risk thx to its low duration and sensitivity to high ping, which makes BW for many "offshore" peeps unrealiable. Infuritate is also on the charge system and gets its CD reduced after every beast gauge weaponskill. Blood Weapon's "unique" trait is its (up to) 3k MP you get from it for 1 Edge or Flood vs Infuriate's trait to overwrite Fell Cleave with Inner Chaos (and aoe counterpart).
In ShB, DRKs CDs are also more awkward than WAR, thx to its 60s BW burst + 90s Delirium, while WAR only has 90s Inner Release. Tho, this will soon be a thing of the past, as most CDs are going to be adjusted to 60s.

Blood Gauge in general is also similar - if not identical - to Beast Gauge. And as I said above, Onslaught and Upheaval are going to have their costs removed, so that statement is not far off. GCD gauge generation - while slightly different - is generated in the same matter and in 10 point steps. Compare that to other jobs or roles, there are plenty that generate 5 and/or 10 points for certain actions, but WAR and DRK are both limited to 10/20 pts.
Also soon to be homogenised: Onslaught on charges instead of gauge cost, 3 charges, very similar to Plunge with its soon 20y range. Whether those 3 charges vs 2 charges really make a difference is debateable, but for certain, not unique!

Let's ingore roles actions (and actions such as Shadowwall/Vengeance and Grit/Defiance) for now, and there are still at least 50% of DRK actions that are copy and paste actions from WAR sprinkled with different visuals and theme - and your characteristic of DRK having risky, low reward actions (Blood Weapon, old Darkside, DA Dark Mind etc.).

The "DRK is a WAR clone"-thing is not just a meme, it describes the state DRK is currently in!

[WhyAmIHere]

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

i feel like i've pointed out the skills that make DRK and WAR near carbon copies in the past, but i CBA to find it.
we all know Bloodspiller = Fell Cleave, and Delirium = IR. Blood weapon's a more jank Infuriate.

Just because you disagree with a viewpoint doesn't make it wrong, especially if you're going to not analyze the merit to the arguments made. DRK plays so close to WAR that, yes, comparing their skills it's not hard to see "oh, A is like B."

[Aword3213]

i feel like i've pointed out the skills that make DRK and WAR near carbon copies in the past, but i CBA to find it.
we all know Bloodspiller = Fell Cleave, and Delirium = IR. Blood weapon's a more jank Infuriate.

Just because you disagree with a viewpoint doesn't make it wrong, especially if you're going to not analyze the merit to the arguments made. DRK plays so close to WAR that, yes, comparing their skills it's not hard to see "oh, A is like B."

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

[Nyarlha]

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

Thank you! That's the kind of things that need to be said here.

[Bhearil]

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are at best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

[Benn]

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

(spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again)

Um, as someone whos first pick was Samurai and I played him the most.... that's basically how many classes play. You throw everything you can in burst window, and then use your base combo till all CDs alligne again. Samurai works on strict 60s and 120s burst windows and between that all you do is spam his long basic chain.

I mean, you could make that argument about most jobs in FF. That's how system works. FF is mostly a build-up-spender system and I don't see what wrong with that.

What they are trying to do is lowering the skill ceiling to make tanks accessible to everyone. You could argue DRK is an alternative to your 3 other tanks in regards to more interesting gameplay, but that isn't true anymore and most likely will stay that way.
.

This is also my take, and you may hate me for it as new player but that's the only reason FF is my first MMO where I want to main tanks. Becasue tanks already have huge responsibility in party and pressure and I absolutely would not want to have complicated mechanics on top of that and It's nice to have burst window where I throw all my skills at once, it's badass and I like that after that things are simpler and so I don't have to shift my focus that much from other tank responsibilites.

Now, I know this is strictly subjective but believe me when I say it - you have more sprout tanks in game now thanks to SE making tanks simpler and more straight foward. You may not like it - but that's a fact.