Is anyone else concerned about 6.0 Summoner?

[aveyond-dreams]

Rydia having access to Bio is one of the weakest arguments for poison mage SMN that I’ve seen thus far. Anyone who has played FFIV knows that given the opportunity to choose between that and an actual summoning spell, its always better to use a summon. This “unique” summoner some are talking about was garbage in both its aesthetic and its gameplay.

If you’re getting your dopamine rush from...casting poisons as opposed to literally being able to call down Bahamut, Phoenix, and the new full sized Ifrit/Garuda/Titan then you are not who summoner is supposed to appeal to. The poisons were pointless and the egis looked like trash. No seriously, you could crumple up a piece of paper and end up with something that resembles an egi quite easily.

If you’re seriously asking for 3.0 job gameplay then I can only assume you did not play 3.0. Luckily, bow mages and other disastrous job designs are gone for good. I cannot speak for poison mages but for me the novelty of dancer never wore off. It’s still my go to because it nails the job fantasy in terms of its animations and gameplay. It’s extremely easy to find other dancers out in the wild who for the most part love their job.

Now that summoner has been wrested back from the affliction warlocks, just like they’ve told us for the past 8 years to go play another class, the tables have now turned on them. Go play bard, blue mage, or anything really. Summoner must never go back to what it used to be.

[Jandor]

Why does it seem like we're only going to be spamming Ruin 3 and Outburst, getting new coats of paint on them during trances?

They didn't look like just coats of paint, they seemed like entirely different abilities to me. IIRC Titan was instant casts, while Ifrit was cast times and a melee ability, and Garuda was casts and a ground AoE.

You have 3 (+2) stances that you have to move through but you can pick the order, and your abilities in each stance are swapped and have different pros and cons. Obviously we haven't seen the full kit, but that seems like a potentially solid amount of complexity.

My main issue would be that it seems like it might tread on Black Mages toes a little, being simple to execute in theory but requiring good knowledge of the fight to actually pull off.

[Duskane]

They didn't look like just coats of paint, they seemed like entirely different abilities to me. IIRC Titan was instant casts, while Ifrit was cast times and a melee ability, and Garuda was casts and a ground AoE.

You have 3 (+2) stances that you have to move through but you can pick the order, and your abilities in each stance are swapped and have different pros and cons. Obviously we haven't seen the full kit, but that seems like a potentially solid amount of complexity.

My main issue would be that it seems like it might tread on Black Mages toes a little, being simple to execute in theory but requiring good knowledge of the fight to actually pull off.

I dont think it will be too bad if there is some freedom to the rotation and not like bard where you cycle songs in a specific way
but i can see Ifrit being a little annoying like RDM Melee when you are about to cap and you gotta go in but mechanics say otherwise(but endwalker seem to have fixed this for RDM).

[PoLaD]

...

My comment to MikkoAkure was just pointing out that, yes, a Summoner in the series has had Bio before, when it was stated that one them never has. And it's not the poisons I'm attach to per say. The DoTs didn't have to stay poisoned themed. They could have for example just given us the DoT off Ifrit-Egi's Inferno so it would fit the theme. Could call it Searing Wind.

I've been a SMN main since ARR. And you seemed to have missed my point. I'm upset because it seems we're losing whatever complexity the job had left for flashiness. I play SMN because I like keeping track of multiple things. Between my pet, my DoTs, cooldowns, our long rotation and movement, it's keeps me busy. I'm never bored and this new version of the class doesn't seem to have any of that going for it. I also like having some support. (Speaking of which, why was Resurrection almost on the chopping block but Physick, with all it wonderful use, is still here, apparently without them fixing it?)

As for your suggestion to move on to a new job, none those fill the niche Summoner currently fills. All pet jobs have essentially been killed off other then SCH, and well. And as fun as BLU is... "Limited Job".

...

I was referring to both Bahamut and Phoenix Trances when talking about Ruin 3 and Outburst. Both of those transform during them. I admit I don't really see what the cons are, so if you could elaborate? The cast times on Ifrit and Garuda both seem to be less then 3 seconds. Garuda also only has one cast, the rest are instant. The new stances are also a bit of my problem as it seems that's all we are going to be doing when not using Bahamut or Phoenix for their 15 seconds or so. Pretty much B > those 3 > P > those 3 > B and so on without really seeing anything to break it up. *shrugs*

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude or whiny. I also play SCH half the time, and well, do I really need to explain why I'm frustrated and don't exactly trust the Devs get this right?

[Vrankyl]

I understand that there are people who like SMN as it currently is. As others have stated it is impossible to make everyone happy. That said those upset about these changes need to understand that they address the two biggest complaints SMN has had for awhile. The first one is a complaint that it has had since ARR. That it didn't feel like a real summoner, that it was just a pet class and honestly has been compared to affliction warlock from WoW more often than it has been compared to Summoner from any of the other FF titles. As such, these changes bring it inline to give it the visual appearance of being a true Summoner which, as others have pointed out, call a summon out for one massive attack and then it vanishes. That is how FF summoning works.

The other large complaint about SMN started with HW and only increased with SB and ShB. That is the fact that SMN has the most punishing rotation out of all the casters and yet is not the strongest of the casters. Due to its long burst build up and the myriad of things to focus on it is extremely easy to mess it up and shoot yourself in the foot. We're all human, we make mistakes. But with most classes a single mistake can easily be recovered, with SMN you've pretty much screwed your dps for the entire fight unless it is a really long one. In addition dying as a SMN is far more punishing than any other class, since you not only have to resummon your pet but you also have to start the long arduous process of ramp up all over again. From the looks of it, these changes fix that. Granted we won't know more until the media tour and the embargo lift next month.

[Claviusnex]

Visually it's awesome, mechanically I'd have to wait and see. I don't think there is anything wrong with worrying though. Personally that DoTs are gone is fine, but I also didn't really care to see them gone either, it was mostly a visual concept that I believe they could have achieved with or without them.

Hopefully however this shift is because they believe they've not only done something visually appetizing but also mechanically. In which case double hurray. I do hope carbuncle does something, or.. something.. around those egi lines.. not because I like egi but because watching a little thing stand around and do absolutely nothing just seems a bit weird lol. Maybe they brought back some of the autonomy they had originally (they sort of auto cast stuff unless you told them not to). So for rewording, not a desire to see Egi (I'm fine either way, though I like demi, and I love the visual vibe of 6.0 SMN so far a lot more than all things current), just that a thing standing around apparently doing nothing is a little odd (and maybe I was blind but carby looked like they were twiddling their toes).

On visuals alone I'm super excited and I think FINALLY REALL SUMMONS, TAKE THAT WoW WARLOCK! lol. But mechanically I'd like to try it before commenting. I am capable of split opinion, to much of the potential confusion of others lol..., like I thought the very original SMN (ARR) was one of the most fun to play but just had a really reaaaallly bad "FF Summoner" presence. (Little is just pure one interpretation).


Here's to hopefully summoner both being an amazing visual treat and mechanically a blast to also play!!

I like the idea of the summoning of the primals and while I would prefer to keep the DoTs as they help strengthen AoE attacks I can live without them. My concern is some posts have claimed that SE has said the primals cannot be summoned in any order I wish to use and that they are in a fixed sequence of one, two, three. This sounds like a one button approach which will take the enjoyment of controlling my character away by no longer allowing me to decide which attack skill is the most appropriate for the situation. I'm hoping this turns out to not be the case and that I will be allowed to use each primal individually in any order. I am willing to wait until we actually see the action bars before deciding what I will do going forward but the current uncertainty is enough to keep me from preordering Endwalker.

[Claviusnex]

I dont think it will be too bad if there is some freedom to the rotation and not like bard where you cycle songs in a specific way
but i can see Ifrit being a little annoying like RDM Melee when you are about to cap and you gotta go in but mechanics say otherwise(but endwalker seem to have fixed this for RDM).

You echo my concerns about summoning the primals and that is the freedom to decide which one to use at what time. If we can do that I think the changes are for the better even though we lose the DoTs which for me helped with AoE damage.

[Bright-Flower]

Summoner felt like it was in a weird spot because it was built off of arcanist. Which is even weirder because I believe arcanist was added at the same time wasn't it?

The poison spells I think make sense for a strategic caster, weakening an enemy with disease etc, while commanding a carbuncle pet.

But the smn/sch split was always kind of weird. Role wise, arcanist is dps and summoner feels like it ought to be the main branch from that, also being dps. But the studious, strategic part went more into scholar flavor wise where a lot of those elements fit better. But scholar is healer and a bigger departure gameplay wise because of it from arcanist. Summoner carries over the gameplay more directly as a dps but SCH really feels like the direct continuation in therms of thematics, continuing the tactician angle into the scholar quests.

Early summoner felt like it was built off of a collection of disparate ideas. It was the summon/pet job. But also had remnants of the arcanist 'smart book mage/wizard' type. And also just kind of got the bio stuff by default because black mage was too full to have all its ice/fire/lightning stuff AND poison stuff too.

Over time it's been shedding a lot of that stuff to move more toward a full on summoner. With demi bahamut and phoenix, lowering aetherflow to two charges, now dropping its dots etc.

On the one hand, I'm glad summoner fans are getting something more in line with what you'd expect from a summoner. On the other hand, I miss HW summoner and enjoy the job less and less the more 'summoner' it actually becomes as it sheds the leftover arcanist stuff.

[Roda]

I like the idea of the summoning of the primals and while I would prefer to keep the DoTs as they help strengthen AoE attacks I can live without them. My concern is some posts have claimed that SE has said the primals cannot be summoned in any order I wish to use and that they are in a fixed sequence of one, two, three. This sounds like a one button approach which will take the enjoyment of controlling my character away by no longer allowing me to decide which attack skill is the most appropriate for the situation. I'm hoping this turns out to not be the case and that I will be allowed to use each primal individually in any order. I am willing to wait until we actually see the action bars before deciding what I will do going forward but the current uncertainty is enough to keep me from preordering Endwalker.

There is no combo system on the summon spells that say you NEED to summon one before unlocking the other, but you must summon all 3 before your next demi phase or you lose dps. Meaning, the list of things casted should look the same every 2 minutes, just with maybe shuffled orders. My worry is that with nothing to track it's going to just be boring 1 and 2 spam. Slap the cooldown or ammo skill until it stops letting you, etc.

And there's probably going to be an optimal burst phase order where you will want to make sure all of ifrit fits within the buff windows, and either garuda's dot snapshot, or (if they mess the numbers up) as much of titan's clap combo before the buffs wear off, depending on how the numbers work out. And that buff window is gonna be... uh... welp, every 2 minutes (devotion Searing light lasting 30s with 120s cooldown means it'll cover all of bahamut (duration 15s, cooldown 60s), and less than 2 semidemis, every full rotation). :T

So really the only "choice" you get is the decision on if the target is going to move out of your floor aoe or not, and if mechanics aren't going to let you use ifrit before you lose time on your next demi summon.
Seems like the only difficulty this job will provide is just making sure you don't drop your gcds between demis.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Summoner looks awesome. I know that we're here to complain about it, but the hype is real ¯\_(ツ)_/¯