Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[rewd]

We are discussing exactly what they showed us, and they showed enough for us to have a general idea and even theorize about a possible rotation.

It's more likely that what they showed us is what we’ll get, to me it’s unlikely that they're so behind in development they didn't have half the spell book ready to show us, or that they intentionally choose not to show half the spells available. They can change cooldowns or potencies, but adding more spells? No, if that happens it's going to be in 6.1.



Yes, exactly, thank God I'm not crazy.

6.0 has no cast timers save for 4 GCDs. 1.5s casts with nothing to weave is concerning, there’s no reason to be this mobile with so few oGCDs. (and current SMN already is mobile, but with resource management.)

6.0 looks like it has the least amount of buttons on any DPS job. A concerning amount for a lvl 90 job kit, it looks like the easiest job the game has ever had. If this is a lvl 90 job, how’s leveling going to be like? For a lvl 50 job it would be absolutely great, but a lvl 90? Very lacking.


The primals and animations are great, but pretty animations is not what keeps people interested. Doing nothing but pressing 1- 2 in slightly different orders won’t keep people interested. Ofc by “people” I mean SMN mains.

This is literally easier/less busy than a DNC, and at least DNC has procs. Nothing against DNCs, what I’m trying to say is that if we wanted that kind of playstyle, we wouldn’t be maining SMN/Caster. We need jobs like Dancer, but not every job has to be like Dancer. A caster shouldn't play like a Physical Ranged. There should be jobs for everybody. Want something more complex or busy? Play SAM. Want something more easy and less busy? Play RDM. I play other jobs besides SMN, but there are reasons why I chose to main SMN, and they're removing those reasons.

Yeah, it's a shame. The foundation of the job is good, but it's empty. It's dangerously close to healers DPS "complexity". The bulk of the rotation is literally four buttons.

[ChazNatlo]

I suspect the intended complexity is of the "Know the fight" sort. Each summon has a different role based on what you need at the time. Looking at the Live Letter demonstration, from activation of Demi Bahamut, there is about a one minute cooldown. Each of the summons has a 30 second duration. Minus the 15 seconds of Demi, you're only using one and a half summons if you want to get Phoenix up as soon as possible. One of the summons isn't getting used, and the other is only getting partial use.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

I understand a lot of the gripe over SMN changes but honestly for the most part, this is how SMN works in almost every other iteration of Final Fantasy, save for FFX. The summoned entity always shows up for a short burst then disappears, leaving the summoner alone on screen for 99% of the time. But FFXIV summoner was never going to be like Yuna summoning the Aeons in FFX. They gave us some pet autonomy, which was nice, and they gave us the ability to tweak our big summon size (bahamut) and egi glams to get cute carby back but it looks like they are finally ripping the bandaid off in Endwalker. Being an old school FF player, I enjoy seeing the full renders for the big attacks, like it used to be. It would have been cool to see egis of some of the other primals but with the way jobs have been handled, I feel like the 5 summons (or summon states now) that summoner has is pretty much all the job can really support, both action and lore wise. In any case, I'll reserve judgement until I get my hands on the job after the expansion goes live. I was good at smn during Stormblood but couldnt quite get the hang of it during Shadowbringers. Hopefully I can reconnect with Endwalker.

[Roda]

I suspect the intended complexity is of the "Know the fight" sort. Each summon has a different role based on what you need at the time. Looking at the Live Letter demonstration, from activation of Demi Bahamut, there is about a one minute cooldown. Each of the summons has a 30 second duration. Minus the 15 seconds of Demi, you're only using one and a half summons if you want to get Phoenix up as soon as possible. One of the summons isn't getting used, and the other is only getting partial use.

The semidemis and their skills aren't being used for 30 seconds. They each have 2 or 4 charges (ifrit/garuda&titan) of their special gem skills and then you're done with those phases. That 30 second timer is just to light a fire under your butt so you actually use the skills instead of just ooh and ah at the pretty spell effect of summoning while ruin IIIing or whatever. You're expected to have been in all 3 before your demi phase. There is no pick and choose.

https://youtu.be/WSGdMv72ghI?t=14143

[ChazNatlo]

Hmm... That's good. I was worried that there'd be a prefered summon like how almost nobody uses Titan now. You'd still want to choose when to use which summon in the order, but it's good that you use each of them.

[rewd]

I understand a lot of the gripe over SMN changes but honestly for the most part, this is how SMN works in almost every other iteration of Final Fantasy, save for FFX. The summoned entity always shows up for a short burst then disappears, leaving the summoner alone on screen for 99% of the time. But FFXIV summoner was never going to be like Yuna summoning the Aeons in FFX. They gave us some pet autonomy, which was nice, and they gave us the ability to tweak our big summon size (bahamut) and egi glams to get cute carby back but it looks like they are finally ripping the bandaid off in Endwalker. Being an old school FF player, I enjoy seeing the full renders for the big attacks, like it used to be. It would have been cool to see egis of some of the other primals but with the way jobs have been handled, I feel like the 5 summons (or summon states now) that summoner has is pretty much all the job can really support, both action and lore wise. In any case, I'll reserve judgement until I get my hands on the job after the expansion goes live. I was good at smn during Stormblood but couldnt quite get the hang of it during Shadowbringers. Hopefully I can reconnect with Endwalker.

How Summoners work in FF is irrelevant because this is a MMO and you can't copy and paste big summons that cast their ultimate and go away and call it a day. Black Mages in FF don't work alternating an ice and a fire phase, yet no one is asking them to rework the job, for example.

This is not the problem, either. The problem is that the job now is completely devoided of depth and complexity. Or anything remotely engaging, really. It looks even easier and boring than 5.X MCH. Almost healers level of complexity, who at least have to worry about health bars.

The bulk of your rotation is composed of four buttons: Ruin III, Tridisaster and the two pet actions. Demi-summons are SMN's inner release with their 11111 spam, primals seems to be different combinations of 1-2. On top of that, you have no DoTs, or debuffs, or buffs to mantain. Movement is braindead because almost everything is instant. There is no resource management.

If this is really how a DPS job will play, I see a panic 6.1 rework to be inevitable. Much like NIN in 5.1 and to a lesser degree SMN itself.

[SweetPete]

Never said they're duplicates. I think I explained my point fairly decently in my post. If people want to be blinded by shiny animations and ignore how 90% of playstyle got nuked, so be it.

The dot argument is pretty silly, we just happened to have dots, there's more to smn than dots.

You people are never satisfied. They tried for years to make summoner better and the pet AI sucked and needed to be fixed. When you try for so long sometimes you gotta take another route. Ffxiv summoner was not a true summoner. We know what final fantasy summoner is known for. What we had was a knock off wow dot warlock. The pet was horrible with ghosting. If you wanna ignore that then that’s your problem. Yoshi said he wanted to bring the fantasy of jobs back and the devs definitely nailed it with summoner. Even if the big primals stay out for 2 seconds they do their ultimate attack as they are suppose to, it’s what summoner is known for. I’m sorry but you people need to get over yourselves.

[SweetPete]

I think the issue is more about how smn is going to be 1-2 job now

Red circle spells (Ruin 3 and Tri-Disaster) Are modified by bahamut and phoenix phase.
Green circle spells are ones modified by titan, garuda, ifrit.

When you have phoenix/bahamut, you will spam ruin3/tridisaster reskins.

When you have other primals, you will spam green skills. Those dont seem like they are very interesting to press either. In garuda, you use right green skill to put dot below enemy and then press left one until effects are gone. In titan you spam left and weave right. In ifrit you use left one 2 times, use right 2 times.

In the end you still use 2 buttons for your main rotation regardless of your state. And there isnt much to weave inbetween majority of those spells (its like only one of ifrit's and garuda's spell actually have cast times, everything else is instant)

Thats seemingly the entirety of smn "complexity" as of now, which is an issue, at least for me. That said i overall like the idea of what they were going for.

Looks pretty fun to me. Plenty of other summoner mains think so too. The devs won’t please everyone so it’s fine if a few don’t like the changes. There are other guys that might appeal to you. Hopefully you stick with us though.

[Dyvid]

Looks pretty fun to me. Plenty of other summoner mains think so too. The devs won’t please everyone so it’s fine if a few don’t like the changes. There are other guys that might appeal to you. Hopefully you stick with us though.

Sorry but I don't want to play a half baked Geomancer.

[SweetPete]

How Summoners work in FF is irrelevant because this is a MMO and you can't copy and paste big summons that cast their ultimate and go away and call it a day. Black Mages in FF don't work alternating an ice and a fire phase, yet no one is asking them to rework the job, for example.

This is not the problem, either. The problem is that the job now is completely devoided of depth and complexity. Or anything remotely engaging, really. It looks even easier and boring than 5.X MCH. Almost healers level of complexity, who at least have to worry about health bars.

The bulk of your rotation is composed of four buttons: Ruin III, Tridisaster and the two pet actions. Demi-summons are SMN's inner release with their 11111 spam, primals seems to be different combinations of 1-2. On top of that, you have no DoTs, or debuffs, or buffs to mantain. Movement is braindead because almost everything is instant. There is no resource management.

If this is really how a DPS job will play, I see a panic 6.1 rework to be inevitable. Much like NIN in 5.1 and to a lesser degree SMN itself.

A 6.1 rework? Lol I don’t think so. They aren’t gonna rework the job because very few people saying there is no complex. If you expect a rework then you will be sadly waiting for that. This is the route they are going. It sets up for more primals to be added in the next expansion. They may tweak the damage if it lacks behind the other jobs but that’s all they will do. This will be summoner. Gotta adapt. This job is about to get very popular.