Dark Knight Megathread

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

...The silent always leave first, hm... Much too true. I am one of those silent in a way... I feel ready to disappear now, and fade away into the depths of the shadows...

No whom hears the silent scream, of a heart that bleeds alone... Lost in the sound of silence, the forsaken embrace isolation, fade away into the darkness, and give in to the madness, never again to be seen or heard...

[Falar]

What did DRK do to even deserve this man...?

I guess this is what we get for being so awesome in Heavensward.

Honestly was surprised that Salted Earth wasnt pruned considering how crappy of a skill became on Shadowbringers

This was my expectation too since it got nerfed so hard it was no longer worth the pain to place and weave/double weave.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly was surprised that Salted Earth wasnt pruned considering how crappy of a skill became on Shadowbringers

About how I figure that meeting went:

Dev 1: So, we're getting rid of Salted Earth, right?
Dev 2: I suppose so? It's iconic, but it's too much effort to develop snap-placement for it, let alone alone for terrain selection to be queued or done mid-animation.
Intern: Sir, if I may? We only just figured out how to detonate ground effects for an additional effect to units in its area. Should we use that only for Doton?
Dev 2: No, no, I forgot about that. I suppose we might as well use that for Salted Earth, too. It might even make it worth placing?
Dev 1: I don't think we ought to be dealing with an annoyance that exists only through technical issues only by siphoning more and more of a job's power into it. While the skill itself would be more satisfying, the job's throughput would end up increasingly centered upon that annoyance...
Dev 2: We... could just place it below the player. Then it could be queued and wouldn't require the extra click, let alone chance the selector scampering off for console players.
Dev 1: Wouldn't they then just, perhaps deservedly, complain about our solving technical issues only by removing unique freedoms. I know we're not likely to develop any fights where a ticking ground effect would be useful for add-grabs or the like, but the more we simplify things that seem useful for this or that, the more we make it clear that we don't plan to build around any such opportunities for ingenuity. Even if we've made they clear enough already, there are some who hold onto some last bits of hope, and removing those vestiges might really hurt how we're perception...
Dev 2: That's a fair point, but leaving vestigial elements in hope the other teams finally apply them isn't exactly good policy... And honestly, wouldn't players quickly find a way to optimize beyond wasting damage ticks for add-grabs, anyways? Unless the mobs fixate on first threat, preventing healing during that period, it seems unlikely to be an issue. Anything that could make significant use of that utility would then oblige it.
Intern: It... would manually explode now, too. That's good, right?
Dev 2: And that explosion would be wherever it was placed, not where the DRK is presently standing, I assume?
Intern: Umm... Yes? Yes.
Dev 2: Then, we'd still have some way to pull off a niche add-grab, for now, while simplifying its casting.
Dev 1: Let's not call that simplification a unique merit to this plan, please... We both know we should have allowed for specified targeting for ground effects, without needing a macro and its loss of queuing, long before we ever removed Flaming Arrow or Shadowflare.
Dev 2: They're gone and I don't think your one-man campaign is going to bring them back.
Dev 1: You say that like I'm not a fourth of the team...
Dev 2: ...So, placed-at-caster for simplicity and a further manual element unlocked thereafter?
Dev 1: I guess so. Can we at least make sure the manual element doesn't require another button? Could we tie it to the same key, maybe giving it a very brief protection from being accidentally double-tapped?
Intern: Yes? Yes. I think so.
Dev 1: Exploding Earth it is, then.
Intern: The Summoner ability?
Dev 1: ...
Dev 2: Don't confuse him. The turnover's high enough as is.

[Ignimortis]

I see I'm not the only one rather miffed about the DRK changes, or, rather, lack thereof. I have no idea why SE thinks that DRK is in a good spot right now. Yes, the HW and SB iterations weren't perfect, but they had a lot more class identity, and considering there's GNB and SGE now with lots of weaveable oGCDs, it's clear that they're not against that design in general. Why does DRK get kicked in the shins for the second expac in a row?

[Lyth]

I have a much, much better understanding of how RPR works than I do Endwalker DRK. We don't even have a video with an MP bar, let alone tooltips. What do we know?

Abyssal Drain still has a life leech effect.
Blood Weapon gives you 10 blood off of each GCD. It's 10 seconds or 3 hits, don't know which.
Soul Eater still gives you 20 blood and still has a life leech effect.
Salted Earth is still 6 ticks/15 seconds.
This new Blood Boil ability does damage, but doesn't appear to apply a buff or debuff.
TBN is still 7 seconds.
TBN 2.0 is 10 seconds.
Living Shadow still costs 50 blood and still has a 24 second duration.
Edge still gives you 30 seconds of Darkside.
Frey's Abyssal Drain doesn't heal you.
Stalwart Soul still gives you 20 blood.
Flood 2.0 doesn't cost blood and looks like an oGCD, but can't say for sure.
Frey's Edge doesn't affect your Darkside.
The follow-up Flood 2.0 happens 10 seconds later. Either it's usable on demand (unlikely), or it's linked to your Living Shadow window somehow.
Delirium doesn't cost blood.
Quietus is free under Delirium.
Carve and Spit still looks like it gives you MP.

Now the real question is: What abilities are gone? There is no actual gameplay footage of tanks, so it's hard to tell. The only abilities that we didn't see previewed were Shadow Wall, Dark Mind, Dark Missionary, and Living Dead. DRK is only at 25 actions, so they in theory should remove fewer actions than they do from other tanks. Again, that's not a lot to go off of. There's nothing flashy here, but flashy doesn't always translate into good. I don't have enough information to judge this properly.

[Ignimortis]

I have a much, much better understanding of how RPR works than I do Endwalker DRK. We don't even have a video with an MP bar, let alone tooltips. What do we know?

*snip*

Now the real question is: What abilities are gone? There is no actual gameplay footage of tanks, so it's hard to tell. The only abilities that we didn't see previewed were Shadow Wall, Dark Mind, Dark Missionary, and Living Dead. DRK is only at 25 actions, so they in theory should remove fewer actions than they do from other tanks. Again, that's not a lot to go off of. There's nothing flashy here, but flashy doesn't always translate into good. I don't have enough information to judge this properly.

That's the point. Everything looked like it worked exactly like it did before in ShB. Unless there are some major changes (haste on Darkside? EoS/FoS MP cost reduction?) that SE chose not to show, I can only surmise that ShB DRK is pretty much unchanged, with some extras bolted on.

[Lyth]

You can't actually take anything for granted, actually. As an example, we know that IR is 60 second recast for 3 Fell Cleaves and likely uses a stack system. They went out of their way to show this. Delirium has likely changed in some capacity as well because it's also down to 60 seconds, but it's difficult to tell what else has changed because it's not really used in a way that I would expect. I don't see a series of Bloodspillers/Quietus being used. Likewise, why is it important that Living Shadow can use the new Flood 2.0 action if all Shadow actions are the same potency? Has that changed? Why is there a new TBN? That's somewhat intriguing given the fact that the only actions that are left unaccounted for that could be pruned are defensive ones. With pretty much every tank gaining a new defensive move (we saw examples of new defensive moves shown for PLD, WAR, and DRK), are we going to see an entire category of defensive moves be removed?

There are other things that are unaccounted for as well. Resource generation and consumption rates have made or broken DRK on previous expansions, and without information on that it's difficult to tell how the job will feel to play. With everything moving to 1-2 minute timers, that's going to change the flow of the job as well.

Most people just look at the flash in these videos and blindly react because thinking is hard. If you have the capacity to look critically, you'll find yourself with more questions than you have answers. And I suspect that part of the reason why some of these things are left vague ('using defensives at opportune moments gives you advantages') is because some of this is still being finalized.

[Ignimortis]

Unless there are major mechanical and numerical shifts in MP generation/spending and ability effects, it is very unlikely DRK will change to a state I am pleased with, because I have a pretty fixed idea of what DRK should play like regardless of general tank changes. Therefore, my bounded expectations range from "it's not gonna play very differently from ShB DRK" to "it's gonna play even worse (read: less pleasant for me personally) than ShB DRK". Most of the stuff you listed does not really impact my enjoyment of the job — Delirium can use the stack system or even become like Ten Chi Jin in a way, defensive moves can stay or go, flow of burst windows doesn't bother me nearly as much as general pace of the job, and I honestly don't think Flood 2.0 on LS is gonna matter much.

The only way for SE to overturn that would be to deliberately conceal very major changes (completely new effects, mostly — though dropping EoS to 1k MP cost and reducing potency appropriately might make me blink) to how abilities work and show it later. I'll wait till the Media Tour to make a final verdict, but I doubt very much that things are gonna improve (again, in my perception, not necessarily in general) majorly. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy. If I'm right, maybe it's time for me to don a longcoat and load some aether bullets.

[Lyth]

I think the vast majority of players have very different, yet fixed opinions on how DRK should play, none of which are compatible with the others. This is compounded by the fact that DRK has changed into a completely new job with every expansion. Maybe the fact that they've finally stopped doing this is a good thing, and we can hopefully work towards something that is enjoyable for most. You should definitely try out GNB. I suspect that their new IR Delirium Holy Spirit combo rework will feel like a breath of fresh air (111111).

"There are only two tragedies in life. One is not getting what you want, and the other is getting it."

[Bhearil]

Stoppping to reinvent a job each expansion is not bad per se, problem is that Shadowbringers DRK rework was mostly cool animations and a degraded and simplistic gameplay (the Dark Warrior meme is for a reason), not the best base to build upon.

Same as the Monk (really hope Monk is "fixed" on Endwalkers for real) seems SE doesnt seem to know what the DRK is to be. You have the paladin, the utility tank with great defense, the War with good ofence and great lifesteal, the Gunbreaker the DPS that wears a tank costume, and then we have DRK, the edgy tank with the best 15 second skill (TBN) and thats it