Dark Knight Megathread

[Ignimortis]

I have a much, much better understanding of how RPR works than I do Endwalker DRK. We don't even have a video with an MP bar, let alone tooltips. What do we know?

*snip*

Now the real question is: What abilities are gone? There is no actual gameplay footage of tanks, so it's hard to tell. The only abilities that we didn't see previewed were Shadow Wall, Dark Mind, Dark Missionary, and Living Dead. DRK is only at 25 actions, so they in theory should remove fewer actions than they do from other tanks. Again, that's not a lot to go off of. There's nothing flashy here, but flashy doesn't always translate into good. I don't have enough information to judge this properly.

That's the point. Everything looked like it worked exactly like it did before in ShB. Unless there are some major changes (haste on Darkside? EoS/FoS MP cost reduction?) that SE chose not to show, I can only surmise that ShB DRK is pretty much unchanged, with some extras bolted on.

[Lyth]

You can't actually take anything for granted, actually. As an example, we know that IR is 60 second recast for 3 Fell Cleaves and likely uses a stack system. They went out of their way to show this. Delirium has likely changed in some capacity as well because it's also down to 60 seconds, but it's difficult to tell what else has changed because it's not really used in a way that I would expect. I don't see a series of Bloodspillers/Quietus being used. Likewise, why is it important that Living Shadow can use the new Flood 2.0 action if all Shadow actions are the same potency? Has that changed? Why is there a new TBN? That's somewhat intriguing given the fact that the only actions that are left unaccounted for that could be pruned are defensive ones. With pretty much every tank gaining a new defensive move (we saw examples of new defensive moves shown for PLD, WAR, and DRK), are we going to see an entire category of defensive moves be removed?

There are other things that are unaccounted for as well. Resource generation and consumption rates have made or broken DRK on previous expansions, and without information on that it's difficult to tell how the job will feel to play. With everything moving to 1-2 minute timers, that's going to change the flow of the job as well.

Most people just look at the flash in these videos and blindly react because thinking is hard. If you have the capacity to look critically, you'll find yourself with more questions than you have answers. And I suspect that part of the reason why some of these things are left vague ('using defensives at opportune moments gives you advantages') is because some of this is still being finalized.

[Ignimortis]

Unless there are major mechanical and numerical shifts in MP generation/spending and ability effects, it is very unlikely DRK will change to a state I am pleased with, because I have a pretty fixed idea of what DRK should play like regardless of general tank changes. Therefore, my bounded expectations range from "it's not gonna play very differently from ShB DRK" to "it's gonna play even worse (read: less pleasant for me personally) than ShB DRK". Most of the stuff you listed does not really impact my enjoyment of the job — Delirium can use the stack system or even become like Ten Chi Jin in a way, defensive moves can stay or go, flow of burst windows doesn't bother me nearly as much as general pace of the job, and I honestly don't think Flood 2.0 on LS is gonna matter much.

The only way for SE to overturn that would be to deliberately conceal very major changes (completely new effects, mostly — though dropping EoS to 1k MP cost and reducing potency appropriately might make me blink) to how abilities work and show it later. I'll wait till the Media Tour to make a final verdict, but I doubt very much that things are gonna improve (again, in my perception, not necessarily in general) majorly. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy. If I'm right, maybe it's time for me to don a longcoat and load some aether bullets.

[Lyth]

I think the vast majority of players have very different, yet fixed opinions on how DRK should play, none of which are compatible with the others. This is compounded by the fact that DRK has changed into a completely new job with every expansion. Maybe the fact that they've finally stopped doing this is a good thing, and we can hopefully work towards something that is enjoyable for most. You should definitely try out GNB. I suspect that their new IR Delirium Holy Spirit combo rework will feel like a breath of fresh air (111111).

"There are only two tragedies in life. One is not getting what you want, and the other is getting it."

[Bhearil]

Stoppping to reinvent a job each expansion is not bad per se, problem is that Shadowbringers DRK rework was mostly cool animations and a degraded and simplistic gameplay (the Dark Warrior meme is for a reason), not the best base to build upon.

Same as the Monk (really hope Monk is "fixed" on Endwalkers for real) seems SE doesnt seem to know what the DRK is to be. You have the paladin, the utility tank with great defense, the War with good ofence and great lifesteal, the Gunbreaker the DPS that wears a tank costume, and then we have DRK, the edgy tank with the best 15 second skill (TBN) and thats it

[Lyth]

????

Dark Knight always fired off beams of purple energy out of their weapons. This dates back to FFIV. It's also been a feature of the job since it was released in Heavensward. Because nostalgia.

I'm baffled at the number of people who want me to remember things that never happened. There was someone in the healer forums earlier going on about the things Healers had to do during their week one clears of Gordias. A raid that took over a month for the first clear to happen. I know everyone wants to fit in, but it's incredibly simple for anyone to check if you were actually around back then. And to be honest, it doesn't really matter when you started playing at the end of the day. It doesn't add any weight to your opinions.

I remember Scourge. But what was it that you liked about it? I'll accept that it looked cool. But what did you like about it from a gameplay standpoint? The fact that it reset your combo? The fact that it was a standalone DoT that most people struggled to break 80% uptime on? The fact that it was 500 potency, and was replaced by Bloodspiller, which was also around 500 potency at the time? I remember Delirium. All three completely different iterations of it. Again, the first one did look cool, and was well designed in the context of the Dark Arts system that existed at the time. The INT down buff was gamechanging, and it was hilarious to see influential naysayers in early Heavensward who claimed that DRK would never be meta eat their words on the first raid tier itself. Stormblood had the worst iteration of Delirium, being both ineffective and contributing to the MP overflow problem that we had at the time. Hopefully they'll just pick a concept and stick with it. Power Slash? I don't remember Power Slash, and you don't either. Nobody used it outside of gpose.

5.0 didn't remove the 'branching combo'. If you want to argue combo pruning, then 4.0 did that. In 4.0, we lost Delirium as a combo step. But your enmity combo? Who cares? Everyone lost their enmity combo after Stormblood because they weren't being used.

I know everyone wants to jump on to the forums and just react to the info dump that they've just received, and that's fine. If you want to critically assess current issues in job design and more importantly raid design in the context of the proposed changes, then even better. But I don't understand why there are so many people posting this nonsense about 'remember Heavensward' when they very clearly don't remember it themselves.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

...To be honest, the original HW Dark Knight does not interest me all that much... My interest was different, and less simple. I want to see a remaster of the most of interest parts about the original HW Dark Knight, not quite the return of it...
What I want to see is a modern Dark Knight that abandons WAR clone style game-play, to be a mix of a original Dark Knight remaster, and the current things that ShB Dark Knight has... Any person can see that even the original Dark Knight had issues and problems, and I would loathe to see those issues and problems return.

With no doubt, I can say that the return of the original Dark Knight is not a good idea... I think only that to use the best parts of the original Dark Knight, as a foundation to build up from, rather than WAR clone foundation, is the good idea.

And to add to what Shin96 did post... Any Dark Knight players that can stomach what Dark Knight has become, may they enjoy it... It was said clear and plain that Dark Knight players similar to myself will be disregarded and ignored, so Dark Knight and its future now lays in the hands of other Dark Knights, not mine. May that go well and end well.

[Shin96]

-bunny-

I have to keep this short so. All I read is basically: "Well why does it matter bla bla nobody did it anyway, it wasn't efficent bla bla". Alright.

First of all, when I make posts, I don't try to convince anyone. Your response seems like an inner conflict and I do not blame you. You made alot of great posts in the past and did your best to contribute in a positive way yet, we ended up with this version of DRK. You quoted me directly, so I know this is somewhat serious.

I didn't want you to remember anything. The sole reason I keep posting in this thread is for the reason I made it. Now of course one could say it's useless but I do enjoy reading posts by other people as well, not only mine. Now, this account was made during Stormblood, I used an account during the HW era but this is besides the point.

Scourge looked cool, it was fun to use when you did, and generally it was fun to apply a dot. It works for GNB, they could have made adjustments anyway, as they usually do for anything that isn't DRK.

5.0 has removed the branching combo. Fact. Using Souleater in repitition is probably what burns people out, in combo with Inner Delirium. Power Slash was a way to maintain aggro, a system which existed before 5.0 but was heavily altered into a process of simply turning on your Tank stance. How boring.

I don't even know what to say to all of this. You're basically jumping on me for just saying how much I liked the previous iterations of DRK. You are putting words in my mouth when I never had the intention of making anyone remember anything. Heavensward is in my opinion a superior expansion and it will always be my favourite. Yes, I also loved enmity and I am sorry you hated it. Whatever the reasons may be, it's fine to disagree on this topic but you should probably try to be more reasonable in the future, you always are for the most part, right?

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

I feel that I agree with lyth a lot, again...

I have a much, much better understanding of how RPR works than I do Endwalker DRK.

Same with me, and one of the causes of my current anger --> frustration --> grief cycle, until I calm back down and think straight again.

What do we know?

Abyssal Drain still has a life leech effect.
Blood Weapon gives you 10 blood off of each GCD. It's 10 seconds or 3 hits, don't know which.
Soul Eater still gives you 20 blood and still has a life leech effect.
Salted Earth is still 6 ticks/15 seconds.
This new Blood Boil ability does damage, but doesn't appear to apply a buff or debuff.
TBN is still 7 seconds.
TBN 2.0 is 10 seconds.
Living Shadow still costs 50 blood and still has a 24 second duration.
Edge still gives you 30 seconds of Darkside.
Frey's Abyssal Drain doesn't heal you.
Stalwart Soul still gives you 20 blood.
Flood 2.0 doesn't cost blood and looks like an oGCD, but can't say for sure.
Frey's Edge doesn't affect your Darkside.
The follow-up Flood 2.0 happens 10 seconds later. Either it's usable on demand (unlikely), or it's linked to your Living Shadow window somehow.
Delirium doesn't cost blood.
Quietus is free under Delirium.
Carve and Spit still looks like it gives you MP.

If you have the capacity to look critically, you'll find yourself with more questions than you have answers.

That's the point. Everything looked like it worked exactly like it did before in ShB. Unless there are some major changes (haste on Darkside? EoS/FoS MP cost reduction?) that SE chose not to show, I can only surmise that ShB DRK is pretty much unchanged, with some extras bolted on.

And then I agree with these two points, as well... I did examine the showcase for Dark Knight with a proper analytical view, and did have much more questions than answers, which led to disappointment and some paranoia, and then on the emotional over-reaction side, I complete agree with Ignimortis...

These two things are another two of the causes of my current anger --> frustration --> grief cycle, as I had been to think to myself for months, that if Dark Knight does not improve, in a way that I regard as improvement, come 6.0... I will do drastic Dark Knight related things.

Now the real question is: What abilities are gone? There is no actual gameplay footage of tanks, so it's hard to tell. The only abilities that we didn't see previewed were Shadow Wall, Dark Mind, Dark Missionary, and Living Dead. DRK is only at 25 actions, so they in theory should remove fewer actions than they do from other tanks.

Perhaps, just perhaps... ShB Dark Knight is so dull and shallow that Dark Knight "got lucky" and no old actions got the delete injustice? just perhaps...

I don't have enough information to judge this properly.

And I must agree... I realize that my current state of mind has too much emotion influence, but I have also thought within just enough reason, to come to the same conclusion... I need to over-react because of emotion influence less, and wait for further information more, before I do any drastic Dark Knight related things.

I think the vast majority of players have very different, yet fixed opinions on how DRK should play, none of which are compatible with the others. This is compounded by the fact that DRK has changed into a completely new job with every expansion.

Hieh... I think(?) that I did already type this at least once, but.. I do not like just how accurate, correct, and true that this is...

If only FFXIV had in-class("job" in this case) diversity...

Maybe the fact that they've finally stopped doing this is a good thing, and we can hopefully work towards something that is enjoyable for most.

Ah... Verily, forsoothe, indeed... And then we have this. I hope(no sarcasm, much serious) that Dark Knight players, come 6.0, enjoy to play Dark Knight and only see their improvement from there... (bias emotion warning) Alas.. There must, of course.. be a sacrifice. There must be at least one part of the Dark Knight community made to be the sacrifice... And any whom akin to myself, have been given confirmation that I am a part of that sacrifice...
This makes four, to keep count... It was anger, and then frustration, while now I just feel terrible...but!, at least I will have a Reaper avatar.. to talk about all of the things with...

...after I bury my Dark Knight self in a coffin and never turn back...