Dark Knight Megathread

[Shin96]

Are some of you blind or dumb? First that was not an upgrade of Flood of shadows that was a total new skill. It doesn't increase DS duration and its a follow up of edge of shadow
2nd he uses flood of shadow at 4:29

And 3rd the black bubbles he uses during salted earth is salted earth follow up.

It still is horrendous. As a tank out of all jobs with boring and lazy animations is nothing but disappointing after many people complained about DRK. I was hoping for the Dark Arts 5.0 removal, it seems however they learned nothing and just expanded on what was already a pretty terrible job in its current iteration.

[KatsuraJun]

It still is horrendous. As a tank out of all jobs with boring and lazy animations is nothing but disappointing after many people complained about DRK. I was hoping for the Dark Arts 5.0 removal, it seems however they learned nothing and just expanded on what was already a pretty terrible job in its current iteration.

removing dark arts is exactly why DRK is the way it is now. they didn't learn nothing. they listened to exactly what people asked for back in SB and are sticking to it.

it's not a coincidence that all interplay between blood and mana is gone. it's not a coincidence that resource management has become simplified. SB dark arts was the lynchpin holding these gameplay systems together - it was essentially a 0 cooldown way to manipulate your mana to whatever number you needed it to be for your upcoming cooldowns or mechanics. without it, all these systems fell apart and were naturally excised from the game as a result.

people asked for this and that's why we have this.
and, enough people are happy with it now that it's not going to change - at least for the foreseeable future.

[Bhearil]

removing dark arts is exactly why DRK is the way it is now. they didn't learn nothing. they listened to exactly what people asked for back in SB and are sticking to it.

it's not a coincidence that all interplay between blood and mana is gone. it's not a coincidence that resource management has become simplified. SB dark arts was the lynchpin holding these gameplay systems together - it was essentially a 0 cooldown way to manipulate your mana to whatever number you needed it to be for your upcoming cooldowns or mechanics. without it, all these systems fell apart and were naturally excised from the game as a result.

people asked for this and that's why we have this.
and, enough people are happy with it now that it's not going to change - at least for the foreseeable future.

Really hope that those happy players keep playing tanks because i foresee a heavy lack of tanks coming this expansion, and no ammount of tank mounts is gonna fix that at this rate

[ArianeEwah]

people asked for this and that's why we have this.
and, enough people are happy with it now that it's not going to change - at least for the foreseeable future.

NO, "people" didn't ask for the removal of Dark Arts, they asked for the spam to stop. And I get that, SB DA was used 10x/minute at full uptime. That's way over the top for an ability. Even Onslaught held on CD would be 6x/min, and the action is situational!
HW DA was kinda clunky because of its long CD (3s) which was changed in SB to 2s, but unfortuntely with many other changes to the DRK MP system.

Nevertheless, the first DRK to clear UWU actually said, they played DRK because they thought it was fun. Well, if a "pro gamer" was happy with it, why did it have to change in the first place?

I don't think "enough people" are the reason why DRK doesn't change in EW, but the fact they just WANT to build upon 5.0 jobs - unless your job is SMN! - and they are heavily understaffed.
Also, I get the feeling that too many of todays DRK players are from the old SB Warrior faction, as well as mayn newcomers that wanted to play the poster boy of Shadowbringers. Just my theory!

[KatsuraJun]

NO, "people" didn't ask for the removal of Dark Arts, they asked for the spam to stop. And I get that, SB DA was used 10x/minute at full uptime. That's way over the top for an ability. Even Onslaught held on CD would be 6x/min, and the action is situational!

removing the spam* aspect of it is functionally deleting it in the context of SB DRK's gameplay loop

need proof? we basically have exactly what you're asking for: edge of darkness is functionally the same as a "less spammy dark arts" - an mp dump without a cooldown - except it costs 2x as much mp and does 2x as much damage - meaning you press it a lot less for the same result.

it's also terribly boring because of that, as dumping mp when you're about to cap becomes twice as easy. not that there's even a risk of that anymore now that BW+Delirium is also gone, because there's no meaning in *that* anymore either when you don't need to plan for it. SB DRK literally couldn't spend mp fast enough to deplete the mana you'd gain during BW+Delirium windows, which is why using dark arts exactly the right amount in preparation for those windows was important. if you were to transplant edge of darkness into SB era DRK, it would become trivial since you can spend mp twice as fast now so you don't need to prepare anything. thus, it too was excised.

*and to add, I don't consider it "spammy" because using it a lot - but not too much where you can't cast CnS/TBN/etc - is exactly how it played into resource management and the punishment for not doing it properly: your oGCD windows become clogged and you can't spend mp fast enough in the aforementioned BW+Delirium windows.

Nevertheless, the first DRK to clear UWU actually said, they played DRK because they thought it was fun. Well, if a "pro gamer" was happy with it, why did it have to change in the first place?

idk where you got the impression I wanted it to change
I didn't want it to change.
i'm still buttmad over it, really.

[Duskane]

im kinda interested in the CD's of CS,AD,Blood weapon and delirium
inner release is already confirmed to be 60 seconds but with only 3 cleaves and assuming Delirium follows Drk is gonna be pretty spazzy every 60 seconds

[Keagian]

What I wanna know is why did they create a follow up for Salted Earth? It was already a garbage skill that players only threw out because it was an extra button and now their is a follow up?

If Salted Earth is on a 60sec CD, this means they gave us another skill that is on a 60sec CD that is just a garbage AoE.

Then theirs the follow up for Edge and who knows how much MP that move is gonna cost.

[Bhearil]

Honestly was surprised that Salted Earth wasnt pruned considering how crappy of a skill became on Shadowbringers

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly was surprised that Salted Earth wasnt pruned considering how crappy of a skill became on Shadowbringers

About how I figure that meeting went:

Dev 1: So, we're getting rid of Salted Earth, right?
Dev 2: I suppose so? It's iconic, but it's too much effort to develop snap-placement for it, let alone alone for terrain selection to be queued or done mid-animation.
Intern: Sir, if I may? We only just figured out how to detonate ground effects for an additional effect to units in its area. Should we use that only for Doton?
Dev 2: No, no, I forgot about that. I suppose we might as well use that for Salted Earth, too. It might even make it worth placing?
Dev 1: I don't think we ought to be dealing with an annoyance that exists only through technical issues only by siphoning more and more of a job's power into it. While the skill itself would be more satisfying, the job's throughput would end up increasingly centered upon that annoyance...
Dev 2: We... could just place it below the player. Then it could be queued and wouldn't require the extra click, let alone chance the selector scampering off for console players.
Dev 1: Wouldn't they then just, perhaps deservedly, complain about our solving technical issues only by removing unique freedoms. I know we're not likely to develop any fights where a ticking ground effect would be useful for add-grabs or the like, but the more we simplify things that seem useful for this or that, the more we make it clear that we don't plan to build around any such opportunities for ingenuity. Even if we've made they clear enough already, there are some who hold onto some last bits of hope, and removing those vestiges might really hurt how we're perception...
Dev 2: That's a fair point, but leaving vestigial elements in hope the other teams finally apply them isn't exactly good policy... And honestly, wouldn't players quickly find a way to optimize beyond wasting damage ticks for add-grabs, anyways? Unless the mobs fixate on first threat, preventing healing during that period, it seems unlikely to be an issue. Anything that could make significant use of that utility would then oblige it.
Intern: It... would manually explode now, too. That's good, right?
Dev 2: And that explosion would be wherever it was placed, not where the DRK is presently standing, I assume?
Intern: Umm... Yes? Yes.
Dev 2: Then, we'd still have some way to pull off a niche add-grab, for now, while simplifying its casting.
Dev 1: Let's not call that simplification a unique merit to this plan, please... We both know we should have allowed for specified targeting for ground effects, without needing a macro and its loss of queuing, long before we ever removed Flaming Arrow or Shadowflare.
Dev 2: They're gone and I don't think your one-man campaign is going to bring them back.
Dev 1: You say that like I'm not a fourth of the team...
Dev 2: ...So, placed-at-caster for simplicity and a further manual element unlocked thereafter?
Dev 1: I guess so. Can we at least make sure the manual element doesn't require another button? Could we tie it to the same key, maybe giving it a very brief protection from being accidentally double-tapped?
Intern: Yes? Yes. I think so.
Dev 1: Exploding Earth it is, then.
Intern: The Summoner ability?
Dev 1: ...
Dev 2: Don't confuse him. The turnover's high enough as is.

[Shin96]

I phrased that poorly. By removal of Dark Arts I mean the removal of 5.0 Dark Arts in exchange for something vastly superior. I find it so excrutianingly mundane, jesus christ all of this feels like a bad joke to me. It's like some fever dream. I expected they'd fix something at least! Bloodspiller spam is gone but the job still looks boring af.

I'm inclined to vote with my wallet, it's September and I still haven't pre-ordered Endwalker, not that there will be any difference for SE considering all the newbies. Anyway, I digress. I think it's time for me to make a choice, they clearly have no respect for tanks at all so.. unless Reaper is worth playing. In the end all of this was kinda predictable I mean? Shadowbringers killed tanking and that expansion is regarded as one of the best. Make of it what you will.