Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Hyrist]

And in-game. In either case, we've seen that vein of complaint since the Demon Wall nerfs and again after the Pharos Sirius nerfs. That vein's been a long-historied one in this game.

Yes. However what's not be mentioned here is that that vein of complaint can usually be traced to the same people who complained back then. And also since then, content like Deep Dungeon, Heaven on High, Eureka, and Bozja have been implemented to attempt to accommodate more exploration based content. In the last two, the additions of Content-Based Raids existed that were very much the in-depth dungeons that were asked of, but of a larger personal scale. All have been reduced to the same level of grind and repetition as all other content has been, and its complexity eventually hampers its longevity.

There will always be those who desire something that's not there. I'm not opposed, at all for it to be accommodated, but making it more than what it actually is does not help its cause. This is a lingering desire, not a system-wide problem. It does not surprise me at all that the same people who were critical of this in ARR's launch are still critical of it, and that there are others who agree. The point is that in spite of that complaint, the system is quite successful as a whole. Therefore, I strongly suggest that the answer should be outside that system.

As the Devils Advocate here: "Don't go wasting my time with needlessly complex dungeons in my roulettes." Is the overall counterpoint. Not that those more complex dungeons shouldn't exist. We have plenty of existing options for anyone looking to progress now. So long as we don't put a substantial dent in those I see no reason why we can't give the area designers some room to stretch their skills in making fun designs. As far as the difficulty complaint? Eh, that's always adjustable and nobody here has any real say so on how that plays out so I'm not concerned with that conversation. It usually just boils down to ego, and I don't have time for it.

[Shurrikhan]

Yes. However what's not be mentioned here is that that vein of complaint can usually be traced to the same people who complained back then.

I think you both overestimate player retention and underestimate just how dull the pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss hallway sprint simulator can be even to new players...

And also since then, content like Deep Dungeon, Heaven on High, Eureka, and Bozja have been implemented to attempt to accommodate more exploration based content.

To the same sense that providing powdered eggs attempts to accommodate a 5-star breakfast, perhaps. But note also that a lack of "exploration" alone, or even primarily, does not come anywhere close to encapsulating the complaints towards dungeons being a shallow and/or stale experience.

In the last two, the additions of Content-Based Raids existed that were very much the in-depth dungeons that were asked of, but of a larger personal scale.

And gated behind long grinds that those who've complained about the unvaried dungeon experience are in many cases the very players most likely to find mind-numbing.

There will always be those who desire something that's not there.

Yes, until it's there. There was a desire for PvP. Your blasé philosophizing would have been just as appropriate were anyone in 2.0 to have asked for PvP to be added.

This is a lingering desire, not a system-wide problem.

Yes, that's how unfulfilled desires work. And, like most unfulfilled desires, there are system-level intersections. The most notable here is flat daily bonuses on roulettes which incentivize players towards the shortest possible dungeon path for max efficiency; even if the rewards for doing each optional element in a dungeon were slightly overtuned, as long as you're getting a flat daily bonus equal or nearly equal to the whole base run's worth of reward, that balance of rewards within the dungeon itself will just be overpowered by the daily bonuses, causing conflicts between those doing the roulette or any content on it for the first time that day and those who are going for a second or further time.

As the Devils Advocate here: "Don't go wasting my time with needlessly complex dungeons in my roulettes."

Then, a further counterpoint: Why would you limit fun to what is convenient to a singular, barebone 8-year-old reward loop and its enticements, rather than designing your reward loops and enticements around what is fun?

We have plenty of existing options for anyone looking to progress now.

While I agree with your larger message that immediately follows (regarding to what extent designers stretching their skills would be harmless), a brief note:

We have a handful of content types; the problem is when the individual pieces of content within any given type feels largely interchangeable, or only a small portion is included in the enticed content flow (i.e., in the game's efficient reward loops). And here, too, the point in case is dungeons.

As far as the difficulty complaint? Eh, that's always adjustable and nobody here has any real say so on how that plays out so I'm not concerned with that conversation.

We can't both have "adjustable" difficulty and have no "real say" on how that plays out. If the "adjustable" difficulty you speak of is purely from the devs end -- to nerf (historically, always) or reinvigorate (historically, never) content as they see fit -- that still rings false, so long as the requests are made for a reduction in difficulty (see Keep, Pharos, Steps, etc.).

[Hyrist]

I think you both overestimate player retention and underestimate just how dull the pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss-pull-to-gate-AoE-pull-to-gate-AoE-boss hallway sprint simulator can be even to new players...

Please forgive me, but I'm not going to reply to a lot of that. In the end, some of it is flat misinterpreting intentions ('adjustable' was referring to dev typically toning down on what the proposed dififculty is, barring ultimates) , or just plain reaching toward content on a completely different ballpark of complaint (PVP is an entire genre of content, not a single 'type' like Dungeons or Beastribe Quests, which are designed to be interchangeable with each generation, like as not.)

In the end I'm not meaning to demean your stance or argument, but as the years have gone on, they sound more and more hollow. This debate hasn't changed in years, and while I'm in support of the idea that's come out of this discussion, I've never agreed with its tone nor its insulations behind it. Be critical if you wish - but bluntly, it doesn't seem to be aiding you.

What I would like to do is turn the course of the conversation to something more constructive. Looking at features or items that could be reused or incentivized in said content. Drumming up excitement for a new feature, rather then continuing to drag down the old feature, which truly isn't likely to change all that much. As you said: "Why would you limit fun?" Many people enjoy the fact that Roulette Dungeons are easy to process and digest.

Hating on Roulettes isn't going to make Exploration Dungeons more likely, in my view. At the very least, it hasn't been effective in all these years. If anything, I think a fair critique of other side content, like DA and BA, would likely be the better target for this - as that seems where they are wanting to experiment. I want to support the goal - I'm INTERESTED in having dungeons that are in depth and have complex mechanics. But I don't think you're going to incentivize the development by trying to bring down something else that has withstood the test of time in spite of your protestations.

However, I will say that I heavily disagree that I underestimate retention and engagement. I think you have a skewed perception on how the staff is measuring that particular success point. Remember, this is the game that Yoshida said years go he's okay with having players lapse on as content drought sets in. And, even before the massive spike in popularity due to certain streamers and WoW's failings, we were still net-growing. Perhaps its time to admit that this game, while not perfect by any measure, is a success? Remember all I'm asking is a bit of perspective adjustment here - and perhaps a tonal shift. Adding to the game is absolutely fine - but don't go alienating what already has proved to be successful.


Now, to contribute to the conversation of productiveness. I really want to see what they could do with dungeons. People were discussing issues of difficulty, but honestly, I'd like to see more along the lines of depth of mechanics. The Lost Actions system is really nice, but it's a sham it's limited to that branch of content. I'd like to see it in things smaller scale and more focused.

To be honest I've had a long held unrequited desire to see more team-based attacks in this game rather than singular performance as well, but I don't think it's going to occur - could live in content like this though - where they wouldn't be ashamed of going a bit wild.