Botting: Good or Evil? lol

[Ruru_Nayu]

I stopped crafting because of bots, perma them lmao

[Jojoya]

It is not good or evil.

It is wrong to do. It is cheating.

If game developers wanted players to be able to automate certain tasks, they would incorporate the automation into the game.

Examples of the game botting for us: Quick Synthesis and Chocobo Porter. Both activities have a normal method that requires more direct inpur from the player but we're given these as options so we only have to press a couple of buttons and the game does the rest.

If someone thinks the game experience would be improved by the game automating certain activities, then submit suggestions to SE for consideration.

But no one should be using bots or other forms of cheating. Those who do it deserve to have their accounts permanently banned.

If you need to cheat, stick to a single player game where what you do has absolutely zero impact on someone else's game experience.

[Dragonblanco]

Botting is not a grey area....

... Please learn to accurately read what you’re linking to.

Let me help you with reading comprehension, shall we?

Also, one more thing. Talking about tools. Well… recently… especially at the forefront of 5.0 and soon thereafter, we saw a huge boost in the number of players and with that, the definition of ‘’tools’’ became increasingly messy to say the least. It’s kind of getting to the point of collapse in regards to tools… so we would like to clearly address this. Well first of all, this goes without saying and it’s also often addressed, um… the use of external tools is ‘’prohibited’’ and this is what’s written in the ToS. And so if in the case that you ask us if it’s okay to use external tools, out reply will always be ‘’No’’, it’s ‘’NG’’, please don’t use them. In the worst case scenario, there is a possibility that your account will be suspended. Such penalties are definitely possible, so please do not use such tools; this will be our response.

So this is for black and white. He's saying look, official stance is that tools (and mods, which was spoken of prior) are clearly stated in ToS as not allowed. So if you do use, there's always risk of getting in trouble. If you ever ask if they can use, they will tell you no.

However, going further into this one word ‘’tool’’, well, in the perspective of us engineers, well… for example… (sigh) we have Discord right? It’s a voice chat ‘’tool’’ yeah? Well it’s fine to call it a voice chat ‘’application’’ anyways and if you ask what the difference is between a ‘’tool’’ and an ‘’application’’, there is no clear definition for that. So, for example, while playing FFXIV… hmm… firstly, personal computers, what exactly is installed on the personal computers, we have no right to control and on top of that, we have no right to check. We have no right to demand what not to be installed. Why? Because it’s your personal computer. It’s yours. So, if FFXIV was installed on a PC and Discord is also installed, in such a case, hmm, if you ask us ‘’Can we use it?’’, it’s one of those ‘’Hmmmm…’’ moments. It’s not like it’s harming the FFXIV client, nor is it modifying anything as well.

This is where he went into grey/gray area. He's expressing how they can't monitor or control what's installed or running on our personal computers. He then specifies where they draw the line, which is saying as long as it isn't hurting the client and isn't modifying anything. Which, guess what, macros and things used to create "bots" fit that determination/exception, as it doesn't hurt the client and isn't modifying anytihng.

Even if it just does basic functions, it’s still an external tool, so, please DON’T use it. So like, if you do use it, regardless if it’s detectable or not, we may suddenly decide to suspend all users, that’s a risk you take, so we want you to understand that. That’s what I think. And as such, ‘’DON’T. Please don’t do it’’. However, having said all that in a strict manner, grey is still grey, considerably. Okay? What is installed on your personal computer, we do not know.

In this one, he definitely expands. Sure, he used Excel, a calculator, and ACT just before it to TRY to give people a very specific representation, but it doesn't mean that's the only thing he's looking at. So here they are also trying to say, it doesn't matter if they can detect it or not, it's officially not allowed and you're taking the risk of suspension and all. Again, after official response, he literally says "grey is still grey" and "what is installed on your personal computer, we do not know." That's their way of saying GRAY AREAS means even though there is black and white answers...they can't and won't always monitor or respond to people who don't follow ToS.

Like we just talked about… So… like, then their just like, prohibit ‘’everything’’. It was in the comments just now… but like then what is ‘’everything’’? So like we mentioned, we have no idea what is on the PC’s being used… (Morbol: Yes, we don’t know and there is point in trying to know.) Yeah, no point… Well we can’t anyways and at that point it becomes the topic of private information… And like you can’t even use ‘’mouses’’, it’s like aren’t those extra buttons on the mouse cheating(!?)…. And so like, there is no solution, nothing can be done.

Here he's hitting like what some of the people even on this thread have done. Where people talk about prohibiting everything. He points out that it's difficult to distinguish where to draw the line and that, yet again, they don't really have a way to monitor and enforce it. That's where he even brings up how we have extra buttons on the mouse which might give a benefit to one person over another. So is that cheating? And while he didn't say it, that also would then bring up things like us older people remember. See, on the old Sega and other systems, including original Playstation (and things before it) we had Turbo controllers. You could program it to do a sequence of events when you push the button. Or in another, if you held the button down, it would repeat it really fast. Whether you know it or not, there are still devices like that for computers and all too, for the disabled. So what he's saying without having to specifically say it is that he's aware peripherals like gaming mouse or keyboard come with things that would be against ToS, but how can they monitor or control that? They can't....

we sometimes get reports from people where someone is using these tools in a video… and frankly speaking, we honestly don’t know. It might appear as so, in appearance, but like they could just say that it’s the CPU temp and if they don’t make it look like that, they won’t know their CPU temps… So like what the hell do we do? Like we can’t exactly take their PC and investigate it. So like, just as we said earlier, if you take the data coming to the PC and you process that on a calculator, that’s not affecting the server, we can’t even trace it. And if we install a spyware in the FFXIV client to investigate what the user is doing, WE will be sued. Yeah.

So this here is where he's really trying to tell you it's a gray area and they turn their heads. He just is having to do it without specifically doing it. I mean, ffs. He's telling you they could have a video where they are seeing ON THE SCREEN that the person is using a tool that violates ToS, but they won't do anything. Why? Well, they are saying people would come up with random excuses or say it's something else and they don't want to penalize...despite seeing it themselves. Then to go beyond that, for people who would say to install spyware to investigate programs, he expresses it becomes a legal issue and they could be sued for invading privacy.

Honestly that part is about as clear cut as you can get it where they are saying even with video evidence, they won't necessarily do anything. They just have to paint the picture and walk around it, without saying those exact words. But it's there clear as day if your reading comprehension is even at the elementary grade level.

Like tools which allows you to macro buttons for faster actions and like we just talked about, tools which goes beyond breaking the game balance, it gives too much convenience and tools which breaks the games difficulty, there is just no way we can accept this. In regards to these, it’s not allowed and if we find you using it and distributing it, penalties will be done. We want to strongly warn you about this.

So as usual, when speaking in gray area, they always have to finish to let you know that there can be consequences. I mean, they have to put rules into black and white. So the ToS says it's not allowed, therefore it's not allowed. If they catch you, you can be in trouble. What you have to remember though is like they said before, it's a gray area and they don't really have a way to catch you. Even if you upload a YouTube video of you using programs/tools they won't do anything, according to what he said. Only because you can argue it's really something else or it was a prank and you didn't actually use it...anything. And since they can't PROVE it, then they let it go.

Does it mean nobody ever gets in trouble? Nope, definitely not. Every once in a while somebody will be stupid and/or will catch enough attention that they'll get caught and suspended/banned.

[Fungo]

Everytime I run out of silly shards when I craft, I am thinking how nice it would be, to be able to have my too farm them while I do other stuff..

[Dragonblanco]

where what you do has absolutely zero impact on someone else's game experience.

I hear you on most of your points and essentially agree. I do wish they'd change things, like housing. From what I have seen and heard, many players are griping about it and hoping for changes. Hopefully they get to it. That said, let me point back at this one section of what you mentioned. I think it's where I was discussing in my pros and cons. Some of the things really doesn't have impacts on anyone else's game experience. Like if Ruru used macros to do Ishgard Restoration crafting so they can level up their crafter. How does that help or hurt you? Does it impact you at all?

Well, what if they then create a more complicated macro that will let them repeat a travel path between a few mining nodes. How does that help or hurt you? Does it impact you at all? I mean...the node stays so it's not like WoW where them getting ahead of you makes the node vanish. So where would the problem be?

I get it, there are some complexities there where we can break down issues, like saying a person could essentially run multiple accounts at the same time to try to buy houses and then sell FC or relocation to others. It becomes unfair as the person has multiple clients and it's all automated. We could talk about some of the basic bots that do dungeon queues and don't really play much, they go on /follow and just hit some basic rotations on a fairly regular, doing target of target as they hope to get gear and/or poetics. Those things, where it diminishes experiences and makes it harder...I agree need attacked. Those will have direct effects on others.

Just so you know, I'm bringing this up and phrasing as I am just for bits of debate. I really do like learning where people draw the line and how they distinguish right from wrong. Not here to argue, but to learn and I guess show how it can be tough sometimes to break it apart.

[Liam_Harper]

For me, I've tried to see it from different ways. Like people with families or multiple jobs can't always man their PC to try for things like housing. So for them, letting it do Ishgard Restoration while they are at work, helping their kids, or whatever else lets them actually enjoy the game without having to do the button spam for hours on end. Or it lets them camp out and try to buy property that otherwise would demand they stand there for 4+ hours in hopes to get the purchase.

No disrespect to people with families and jobs, but this doesn't entitle you to unfair advantages over others. Sometimes you just have to accept that your real life situation means you can't fully enjoy all the hobbies you wish. You can't just expect to be allowed to negatively impact hobbies for people who enjoy them because you have a job or children. Not to mention bots are not handed out based on an evaluation of your real life commitments and time schedule, they're openly available and more often used by people who have plenty of free time and can't be bothered.
The game already respects your time more than most. If the developers consider a form of automated gameplay to be acceptable, they'd have added it.

On the topic of legal ingame bots, I've actually seen MMO's try this years ago in the past as a means to combat botting. They absolutely wrecked their own economies. All markets simply died. It pretty much killed those games.

Sure, them undercutting means you can't sell some things as high as you'd want. But then it's the reverse too, that you can buy things cheaper than you otherwise could. I think it's this gray area of seeing more benefits than negative, not to mention how there's no substantial direct impact against players, why we see so much of it existing

Buying items cheap is the end result. It feels like a benefit, but you skip over and destroy everything in the middle. For those who like to sell, there's no longer a point in leveling crafters, gearing, farming mats, making items and listing them. For those who buy, there's no longer a point in leveling crafters, farming Normal raids, farming scrips and all the rest. Why bother, just buy your items and gear dirt cheap from a bot.

Super cheap items are only a very short term "benefit". Similar to loading cheat codes in a single player game is a benefit for half an hour, then you suddenly realize you're bored and done with the game.

[kaynide]

I've noticed some threads come up on this, but I really want to hear from the player base in in General Discussion. Do you think there's a place for botting or SE should get stricter? What are the pros and cons?

For me, I've tried to see it from different ways. Like people with families or multiple jobs can't always man their PC to try for things like housing. So for them, letting it do Ishgard Restoration while they are at work, helping their kids, or whatever else lets them actually enjoy the game without having to do the button spam for hours on end. Or it lets them camp out and try to buy property that otherwise would demand they stand there for 4+ hours in hopes to get the purchase.

Respectfully, as a family man, if you want to do X, but can't devote the time to do X because of real life reasons, you should simply not do X, or find an alternative to X that will satisfy you, or find a way to organize your life to allow for doing X.

In the case of not being able to devote time play an MMO, there are other games that one could play. Or you could try to get a better job that allows for more free time. Or .. or.. or.. the list goes on. Simply put, if you're relying on an automation system to play a game for you, should you really be playing that game in the first place?

So you tell me, what do you like and/or hate about the idea of botting in the game? If they suddenly changed their stance to permit it, would you bot yourself?

I hate the idea of botting as a general thing, but I would be open to the devs having some sort of automation stuff in play, or re-working the game to remove the need for cases where bots are used.

Like, they are going to add a lottery system for housing, so there won't be the 4+ hours or whatever camping to buy property anymore. Win.

I think an automation system would be good for crafting.. like say I want to make "ARMOR" but I need to do Ore -> Ingot -> Plates; Skin -> Leather; Random plants -> Oil etc. It would be nice to just say "Make this ARMOR" and it has me start making whatever components I need, one after the other until I ultimately craft the armor. Auto switch crafting jobs without exiting the crafting system each time, auto select the next component to make and go go.

For markets, if they did like Guild Wars and removed the item stack weirdness. You should just go to the market, say "I wanna buy 10 rootbeers for at most 125 gil each" and the order is placed. As long as your buy-limit price is over the lowest sale price, you buy exactly 10 rootbeers for whatever price they were asking for, up to 125 gil.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Everytime I run out of silly shards when I craft, I am thinking how nice it would be, to be able to have my too farm them while I do other stuff..

Retainer ventures.

[kaynide]

Let me help you with reading comprehension, shall we?

So this is for black and white. He's saying look, official stance is that tools (and mods, which was spoken of prior) are clearly stated in ToS as not allowed. So if you do use, there's always risk of getting in trouble. If you ever ask if they can use, they will tell you no.

This is where he went into grey/gray area. He's expressing how they can't monitor or control what's installed or running on our personal computers. He then specifies where they draw the line, which is saying as long as it isn't hurting the client and isn't modifying anything. Which, guess what, macros and things used to create "bots" fit that determination/exception, as it doesn't hurt the client and isn't modifying anytihng.

There has never been a grey zone in regard to bots. There's a reason why they regularly round up hundreds or so bots every month or so and report on how many they banned, regardless of how resilient the botters are or how many times they buy new accounts.

Again, there is no grey zone: If you are using any kind of tool that gives you any kind of advantage over other players, and you are caught, you will be banned.

To the point, they don't care if you use plugins that allow you to glitch your housing items, or an automated macro-software that plays songs. They DO care if you can push 1 button and have your character run between mining points and gather materials without your input. Or move unnaturally. Or glitch fights. Etc.

[Sotaris]

Is using Razer Synapse, iCue etc etc botting then?