Botting: Good or Evil? lol

[Dragonblanco]

Botting is not a grey area....

... Please learn to accurately read what you’re linking to.

Let me help you with reading comprehension, shall we?

Also, one more thing. Talking about tools. Well… recently… especially at the forefront of 5.0 and soon thereafter, we saw a huge boost in the number of players and with that, the definition of ‘’tools’’ became increasingly messy to say the least. It’s kind of getting to the point of collapse in regards to tools… so we would like to clearly address this. Well first of all, this goes without saying and it’s also often addressed, um… the use of external tools is ‘’prohibited’’ and this is what’s written in the ToS. And so if in the case that you ask us if it’s okay to use external tools, out reply will always be ‘’No’’, it’s ‘’NG’’, please don’t use them. In the worst case scenario, there is a possibility that your account will be suspended. Such penalties are definitely possible, so please do not use such tools; this will be our response.

So this is for black and white. He's saying look, official stance is that tools (and mods, which was spoken of prior) are clearly stated in ToS as not allowed. So if you do use, there's always risk of getting in trouble. If you ever ask if they can use, they will tell you no.

However, going further into this one word ‘’tool’’, well, in the perspective of us engineers, well… for example… (sigh) we have Discord right? It’s a voice chat ‘’tool’’ yeah? Well it’s fine to call it a voice chat ‘’application’’ anyways and if you ask what the difference is between a ‘’tool’’ and an ‘’application’’, there is no clear definition for that. So, for example, while playing FFXIV… hmm… firstly, personal computers, what exactly is installed on the personal computers, we have no right to control and on top of that, we have no right to check. We have no right to demand what not to be installed. Why? Because it’s your personal computer. It’s yours. So, if FFXIV was installed on a PC and Discord is also installed, in such a case, hmm, if you ask us ‘’Can we use it?’’, it’s one of those ‘’Hmmmm…’’ moments. It’s not like it’s harming the FFXIV client, nor is it modifying anything as well.

This is where he went into grey/gray area. He's expressing how they can't monitor or control what's installed or running on our personal computers. He then specifies where they draw the line, which is saying as long as it isn't hurting the client and isn't modifying anything. Which, guess what, macros and things used to create "bots" fit that determination/exception, as it doesn't hurt the client and isn't modifying anytihng.

Even if it just does basic functions, it’s still an external tool, so, please DON’T use it. So like, if you do use it, regardless if it’s detectable or not, we may suddenly decide to suspend all users, that’s a risk you take, so we want you to understand that. That’s what I think. And as such, ‘’DON’T. Please don’t do it’’. However, having said all that in a strict manner, grey is still grey, considerably. Okay? What is installed on your personal computer, we do not know.

In this one, he definitely expands. Sure, he used Excel, a calculator, and ACT just before it to TRY to give people a very specific representation, but it doesn't mean that's the only thing he's looking at. So here they are also trying to say, it doesn't matter if they can detect it or not, it's officially not allowed and you're taking the risk of suspension and all. Again, after official response, he literally says "grey is still grey" and "what is installed on your personal computer, we do not know." That's their way of saying GRAY AREAS means even though there is black and white answers...they can't and won't always monitor or respond to people who don't follow ToS.

Like we just talked about… So… like, then their just like, prohibit ‘’everything’’. It was in the comments just now… but like then what is ‘’everything’’? So like we mentioned, we have no idea what is on the PC’s being used… (Morbol: Yes, we don’t know and there is point in trying to know.) Yeah, no point… Well we can’t anyways and at that point it becomes the topic of private information… And like you can’t even use ‘’mouses’’, it’s like aren’t those extra buttons on the mouse cheating(!?)…. And so like, there is no solution, nothing can be done.

Here he's hitting like what some of the people even on this thread have done. Where people talk about prohibiting everything. He points out that it's difficult to distinguish where to draw the line and that, yet again, they don't really have a way to monitor and enforce it. That's where he even brings up how we have extra buttons on the mouse which might give a benefit to one person over another. So is that cheating? And while he didn't say it, that also would then bring up things like us older people remember. See, on the old Sega and other systems, including original Playstation (and things before it) we had Turbo controllers. You could program it to do a sequence of events when you push the button. Or in another, if you held the button down, it would repeat it really fast. Whether you know it or not, there are still devices like that for computers and all too, for the disabled. So what he's saying without having to specifically say it is that he's aware peripherals like gaming mouse or keyboard come with things that would be against ToS, but how can they monitor or control that? They can't....

we sometimes get reports from people where someone is using these tools in a video… and frankly speaking, we honestly don’t know. It might appear as so, in appearance, but like they could just say that it’s the CPU temp and if they don’t make it look like that, they won’t know their CPU temps… So like what the hell do we do? Like we can’t exactly take their PC and investigate it. So like, just as we said earlier, if you take the data coming to the PC and you process that on a calculator, that’s not affecting the server, we can’t even trace it. And if we install a spyware in the FFXIV client to investigate what the user is doing, WE will be sued. Yeah.

So this here is where he's really trying to tell you it's a gray area and they turn their heads. He just is having to do it without specifically doing it. I mean, ffs. He's telling you they could have a video where they are seeing ON THE SCREEN that the person is using a tool that violates ToS, but they won't do anything. Why? Well, they are saying people would come up with random excuses or say it's something else and they don't want to penalize...despite seeing it themselves. Then to go beyond that, for people who would say to install spyware to investigate programs, he expresses it becomes a legal issue and they could be sued for invading privacy.

Honestly that part is about as clear cut as you can get it where they are saying even with video evidence, they won't necessarily do anything. They just have to paint the picture and walk around it, without saying those exact words. But it's there clear as day if your reading comprehension is even at the elementary grade level.

Like tools which allows you to macro buttons for faster actions and like we just talked about, tools which goes beyond breaking the game balance, it gives too much convenience and tools which breaks the games difficulty, there is just no way we can accept this. In regards to these, it’s not allowed and if we find you using it and distributing it, penalties will be done. We want to strongly warn you about this.

So as usual, when speaking in gray area, they always have to finish to let you know that there can be consequences. I mean, they have to put rules into black and white. So the ToS says it's not allowed, therefore it's not allowed. If they catch you, you can be in trouble. What you have to remember though is like they said before, it's a gray area and they don't really have a way to catch you. Even if you upload a YouTube video of you using programs/tools they won't do anything, according to what he said. Only because you can argue it's really something else or it was a prank and you didn't actually use it...anything. And since they can't PROVE it, then they let it go.

Does it mean nobody ever gets in trouble? Nope, definitely not. Every once in a while somebody will be stupid and/or will catch enough attention that they'll get caught and suspended/banned.

[kaynide]

Let me help you with reading comprehension, shall we?

So this is for black and white. He's saying look, official stance is that tools (and mods, which was spoken of prior) are clearly stated in ToS as not allowed. So if you do use, there's always risk of getting in trouble. If you ever ask if they can use, they will tell you no.

This is where he went into grey/gray area. He's expressing how they can't monitor or control what's installed or running on our personal computers. He then specifies where they draw the line, which is saying as long as it isn't hurting the client and isn't modifying anything. Which, guess what, macros and things used to create "bots" fit that determination/exception, as it doesn't hurt the client and isn't modifying anytihng.

There has never been a grey zone in regard to bots. There's a reason why they regularly round up hundreds or so bots every month or so and report on how many they banned, regardless of how resilient the botters are or how many times they buy new accounts.

Again, there is no grey zone: If you are using any kind of tool that gives you any kind of advantage over other players, and you are caught, you will be banned.

To the point, they don't care if you use plugins that allow you to glitch your housing items, or an automated macro-software that plays songs. They DO care if you can push 1 button and have your character run between mining points and gather materials without your input. Or move unnaturally. Or glitch fights. Etc.

[Dragonblanco]

There has never been a grey zone in regard to bots. There's a reason why they regularly round up hundreds or so bots every month or so and report on how many they banned, regardless of how resilient the botters are or how many times they buy new accounts.

Again, there is no grey zone: If you are using any kind of tool that gives you any kind of advantage over other players, and you are caught, you will be banned.

To the point, they don't care if you use plugins that allow you to glitch your housing items, or an automated macro-software that plays songs. They DO care if you can push 1 button and have your character run between mining points and gather materials without your input. Or move unnaturally. Or glitch fights. Etc.

It's sad that you and Milkie have such poor reading comprehension and can't grasp what the idea of a gray area is. I know neither of you are stupid, but it's like this just is going right over your heads. Not sure if it's intentional just because y'all are hoping to argue, if it's because you can't handle the idea of gray areas, if you only accept certain aspects because you do it but shun the rest since you don't, or what.

Main point is they did spell out that using peripherals and programs on the computer for any purpose is a gray area. They can't see it and they can't control what you have on your personal computer. They can tell you that using anything other than the game client is a violation of ToS, but that it's a slippery slope beyond that. So as long as you're not hacking the server, you aren't hurting the client, and you're not modifying anything they generally look away. When you mention things like glitch fights or moving unnaturally, that's a violation of the "do not" and things they WILL eventually catch you on.

The things like macro to repeat things you can normally do while playing the game, having an overlay that doesn't directly affect the game, etc are all things they are saying they can't see and have no way to prove. So they are limited and include that in what they call the "gray area." It's not gray because it's not a violation, it's just gray because it fits in an ambiguous situation.

Oh, and you're adding "any kind of advantage over other players" while completely ignoring the things I mentioned on that. You also skipped over where he even compared to a person using a gaming mouse to someone who isn't, is the extra buttons on the gaming mouse cheating? It gives that player an advantage....

[Kes13a]

Oh, and you're adding "any kind of advantage over other players" while completely ignoring the things I mentioned on that. You also skipped over where he even compared to a person using a gaming mouse to someone who isn't, is the extra buttons on the gaming mouse cheating? It gives that player an advantage....

I have used a gaming mouse before, and last I checked, they do not automate gameplay the way that bot programs do. a gaming mouse will not check and change market pricing every 10-15 minutes. a gaming mouse will not cycle between harvest nodes while you sleep, read, have dinner etc... a gaming mouse will not run through dungeons and map parties while you sleep or have dinner etc...

those are examples of things a bot program can do, the end result being that the person using the bot....doesnt even have to play the game or be at the computer. period. there is zero comparing the two.

using a bot is cheating, it is specifically disallowed and is not grey area lol, but if someone is going to cheat, they'll cheat. its that simple

[kaynide]

It's sad that you and Milkie have such poor reading comprehension and can't grasp what the idea of a gray area is. I know neither of you are stupid, but it's like this just is going right over your heads. Not sure if it's intentional just because y'all are hoping to argue, if it's because you can't handle the idea of gray areas, if you only accept certain aspects because you do it but shun the rest since you don't, or what. .

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

[Dragonblanco]

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

Botting = n. a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination): intelligent infobots; shopping bots.

Meaning using a macro that can execute commands or perform routine tasks = botting.

Other definitions of botting:
: a computer program that performs automatic repetitive tasks :
: a computer program or character (as in a game) designed to mimic the actions of a person

Yeah, sounds like macros, doesn't it?

This is what I'm trying to say, some of you are try hards in twisting things just to try to say you're correct and others not. You're either for it or against it. Should things be all 100% player time and skill or do we allow external macros/bots?

And keep in mind, when we say macros, we're not referring to the in-game macros. We're talking about macros created and done by peripherals and external programs.

Call me rude all you want, but when I have people who keep avoiding main points and who are completely arguing nonsense just to argue....

[kaynide]

Botting = n. a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination): intelligent infobots; shopping bots.

Meaning using a macro that can execute commands or perform routine tasks = botting.

Other definitions of botting:
: a computer program that performs automatic repetitive tasks :
: a computer program or character (as in a game) designed to mimic the actions of a person

Yeah, sounds like macros, doesn't it?

This is what I'm trying to say, some of you are try hards in twisting things just to try to say you're correct and others not. You're either for it or against it. Should things be all 100% player time and skill or do we allow external macros/bots?

And keep in mind, when we say macros, we're not referring to the in-game macros. We're talking about macros created and done by peripherals and external programs.

Call me rude all you want, but when I have people who keep avoiding main points and who are completely arguing nonsense just to argue....

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

[Dragonblanco]

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

Again, you're trying to differentiate and essentially strawman. And for what?

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

I never asked if bots are allowed. These types of comments is why I say a lot of you need to work on your reading comprehension. Seriously, go back to all my comments and the original post. Not once did I ask if they are allowed. Want to know what I said?

Do you think there's a place for botting or SE should get stricter? What are the pros and cons?

Which means in all of your arguing, you didn't know how to read and answer. What yours would be is "I think SE should get stricter. Botting seems bad because "x" and I don't see any pros (or the pros to botting are "y"). Yet somehow it couldn't appeal to you to actually read what people asked and then just answer. Instead you came in with these random arguments and comments.

Oh, and further read that initial post:

So you tell me, what do you like and/or hate about the idea of botting in the game? If they suddenly changed their stance to permit it, would you bot yourself?

Ooh, I said "IF THEY SUDDENLY CHANGED THEIR STANCE TO PERMIT IT."

That means I'm telling you IT IS NOT ALLOWED by TOS. So again, I didn't ask if it's allowed. ffs....

[Dragonblanco]

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

macro noun
plural macros
Definition of macro (Entry 2 of 3)
: a single computer instruction that stands for a sequence of operations


It doesn't matter if it's one button push to do a whole sequence of events, it's still botting. It's automation that does not exist in the game as created by the developers; thus it is not allowed. There are tons of different types of botting, but botting is botting. It's using automation to perform tasks you're too lazy to do yourself or don't have the time to do. They can serve some very good purposes and make tasks much faster and efficient to do, which is part of why I was asking if we thought that bots should belong in the game or if developers should continue to forbid such actions?