Open World PvP

[Fland]

From the way i see it, this only proves how little he understands what PvP is actually about. PvP in MMORPGs is NOT casual content by nature. If you want a casual experience in that direction, you might as well play League of Legends or Doter 2.

Why couldn't PVP in MMORPG be casual?

[Anhra]

Why couldn't PVP in MMORPG be casual?

Because it comes at the cost of its core aspect: complexity. Casual Players dont care about this stuff, all they want is to have a good time and with as little investment as possible. It is like changing Chess to the point where every figure is removed and all you have left is just the King, and a horde of Queens, because anything else is way too complex. Can this still be called Chess, after those kind of changes?

[Fland]

Because it comes at the cost of its core aspect: complexity. Casual Players dont care about this stuff, all they want is to have a good time and with as little investment as possible. It is like changing Chess to the point where every figure is removed and all you have left is just the King, and a horde of Queens, because anything else is way too complex. Can this still be called Chess, after those kind of changes?

I dunno, for me the core aspect of PVP is more about competitiveness, which doesn't necessarily come from complexity.

[Anhra]

I dunno, for me the core aspect of PVP is more about competitiveness, which doesn't necessarily come from complexity.

The thing is, the Competitive thing basically comes from itself, so the only thing you can do to influence it, is by adding variety in Game Modes, such as Open World PvP, Arena Matches, Duelling Rings or maybe even PvP Raids (basically contest Dungeons from other Players, some of the early MMOs had this), to name a few.

Now the complexity, is the entire lifeblood of PvP. With complexity, i mean how the Classes in the game are designed, how they work with the enviroment/other Players and if the possibility of alternative Playstyles exists. Now what exactly does that mean? It means that your Skills come with effects that have impact on combat without just dealing damage such as Slow effects, Stuns, Knockback Abilities, (De-)buffs, Skills that allow the Character to jump fixed distances instantly/delayed or straight up manipulate enemies/allies (for example, mind control from WoW or rescue from FFXIV), to name a handful. Those kind of skills are what allow Classes to have a certain Playstyle that is both responsive and dynamic and allows even specialist Jobs such as Healers, to actually put up a interesting and good fight despite damage not being its main thing.

Now with that Info being kept in mind, keep a look at FFXIV PvP. It has almost nothing of those kind of things at all. Most abilities are just raw healing/damaging abilities that sometimes trigger under specific conditions, with the assumption to keep bursting in check. To make matters worse, they even gave every Job Combat Potions which unnecessarily stall combat for way longer than it should, in a 1vs1 scenario.

If this game wants to have a functioning PvP enviroment, it needs to keep those things in mind, as well as design Jobs about individual performances aganist the other Jobs, in a way where the possibility of being able to defeat any of the other Jobs in a 1vs1 scenario exists. Anything else, such as Group Fights/Feast and Frontline's will automatically revolve arround those design choices on their own, so worrying about how specific Jobs work inside a Group enviroment comes second to individual performance (that does not mean it isnt important, since this too, is a important aspect (the Shai Class from Black Desert Online is a good example on that, as a form of reference) that can be the playstyle of a specific Job.

[Kes13a]

If this game wants to have a functioning PvP enviroment, it needs to keep those things in mind, as well as design Jobs about individual performances aganist the other Jobs, in a way where the possibility of being able to defeat any of the other Jobs in a 1vs1 scenario exists. Anything else, such as Group Fights/Feast and Frontline's will automatically revolve arround those design choices on their own, so worrying about how specific Jobs work inside a Group enviroment comes second to individual performance (that does not mean it isnt important, since this too, is a important aspect (the Shai Class from Black Desert Online is a good example on that, as a form of reference) that can be the playstyle of a specific Job.

so... basically, redesign all the jobs so pvpers, a small portion of the player base according to SE, can have their "fun"

because that hasnt made the classes a revolving door of bad design choices and unplayability in pve in other games such as WoW in search of... "balance"

yeah, thinking I am still a hard "no" for world pvp

[Anhra]

so... basically, redesign all the jobs so pvpers, a small portion of the player base according to SE, can have their "fun"

because that hasnt made the classes a revolving door of bad design choices and unplayability in pve in other games such as WoW in search of... "balance"

So what? It is their responsibility to keep their target audience entertained, that is what eveyone in the FFXIV Team signed up for. The entirety of PvP has been redesigned once already, unfortunately for the worse.

Also, if you dont like PvP, dont bother with it, instead of constantly hissing and spitting hairballs at People who genuinely care for this type of content.

[Kes13a]

So what? It is their responsibility to keep their target audience entertained, that is what eveyone in the FFXIV Team signed up for. The entirety of PvP has been redesigned once already, unfortunately for the worse.

Also, if you dont like PvP, dont bother with it, instead of constantly hissing and spitting hairballs at People who genuinely care for this type of content.

I have zero issue with the people who care for that type of content.

my issue arises when pandering to that type of content screws up everything in pve so those people who like it have "balance". which has been seen before many times in many games because developers seem to be unable to separate pve and pvp abilities. its that simple.

[DPZ2]

So what? It is their responsibility to keep their target audience entertained...

Obviously, PvP players are not their target audience. So, great!

[Artemiz]

Because it comes at the cost of its core aspect: complexity. Casual Players dont care about this stuff, all they want is to have a good time and with as little investment as possible. It is like changing Chess to the point where every figure is removed and all you have left is just the King, and a horde of Queens, because anything else is way too complex. Can this still be called Chess, after those kind of changes?

I'm wondering if you and I just have a different understanding of what a casual is. To me a casual player is someone who doesn't necessarily play everyday and doesn't aim for the hardest content. It's not a permanent position though, I consider myself a casual now as I play maybe 3 days a week and am happy doing less time consuming stuff than the harder content, I used to do all that stuff but it can be time consuming and demanding.

Its a choice I made, and has everything to do with time and nothing really to do with class complexity. Im a casual in FFXI as well and that game is 10 times more complex than FFXIV has ever been.