Mentor Roulette should have longer lockout time

[Baxcel]

The only way I see this working out is if they remove the mentor mount from players and delete the achevement. Change mentor roulette into a filler for players with lv80 classes for any dungeon and normal mode raid/trial. Then introduce a new mentor roulette that's only EX trails and that what gives the mount. With the limit that if the trail ends in any way except time out or clear the mentor involved are locked from using that roulette for 24hrs.. that gives us a filler roulette that covers all content and isn't limited to only mentors just a must be lv80 and have everything unlocked to do.. and a filler for ex trails that is mentor only giving a reward to those that actuallu follow the requirements of a mentor and teaching the new players.

[Tlamila]

I'm asking this question because the arguments here seem to be from the point of view that the mentor queue is a reward for mentors. Something they can use to get extra rewards (or a mount).

This is why I don't think the "give more achievement points if ex" is a good idea. It just reinforces the fact that mentor is something you do for the mount, and only attracts more people who shouldn't be mentors to begin with.

I don't care about the mount, I just care to help others. That's how it should be.
BUT, as others have said, EXes shouldn't be done in DF, especially old ones even most veterans have no clue how to do, and most of the time it's just carrying an undergeared and unprepared sprout. Yes, mentors are there to help people, but not to carry them. From what I heard, rarely ever DF EXes result in a clear, even with all the help of mentors, because people who queue for them do so because the quest tells them so, they're actually unprepared for the difficulty, and often with very low ilvl. Very rarely it results in a clear no matter how much you try. And honestly, teaching EXes fights to someone who just started the game is not only something a mentor shouldn't have to do, but also something sprouts shouldn't waste time on. At that level people often don't even know how to turn on tank stance and things like that, they're just seeing 9men trials for the first time even in normal/hard mode, figures being ready for EXes. They just should make them unquable on DF, but JP works differently so....

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

I'm asking this question because the arguments here seem to be from the point of view that the mentor queue is a reward for mentors. Something they can use to get extra rewards (or a mount).

Bluntly, it is. The whole purpose of every roulette in this game is to offer rewards to incentivize people that wouldn't sign up for certain content due to lack of desire, lack of reward (being a level 79, you'd never willingly sign up for sastasha for exp, for example), etc. So that way content that people need to do continues to get duty pops and doesn't just fall into obscurity and die off. mentor roulette is chock full of daily rewards along with extremely enticing glamours & a majestic 2-seater mount as a means to get people to sign up for it, much like all the other roulettes.

The issue with mentor contrast to the other roulettes, is that a subsection of the content of the roulette requires 5000% more effort than other parts of it, so people, upon knowing there's an incredibly high chance their time is about to be wasted, will leave. The rewards aren't enough of an enticement to keep them staying.

I'd have to look for it, but there's even a quote of Yoshi-P saying mentor roulette isn't about teaching new people. it's meant to get the duties of new players popping so even if other roulettes are barren, there'll still be players getting funneled to make sure sporuts don't get rail-roaded at an MSQ wall.

So is someone asking for reinforcement of the actual purpose of the mentor roulette all that outrageous?

it's not, but they should understand the opposing viewpoint of why the vast majority see it as a waste of time and rightfully choose to save their personal time by bailing than committing a full hour to something that may not even succeed. Especially when many players might not have more than say, 2 hours of playtime a night, spending half of it stuck in an EX trial might not be their idea of a fun time.

Honestly I think people abuse the crap out of the whole mentor system and it should be abolished for something with little to no "rewards" so that actual people who want to help can connect with people who need it.

History has already shown this would result in a pretty dead queue.
Main scenario roulette at one point gave a worse reward than to just hard queueing dungeons of similar level; and it resulted in the queue being massively dead, causing roadblocks for new players till they had to ultra buff the roulette to convince people to do it again.

Out of any group of 100 people, very few people are going to queue for something 'just for the feels of helping someone'. the vast, vast majority need to be incentivized to do things. It's a simple reality, hence why the mentor roulette gives rewards + a very fancy mount in the hopes of convincing more people to run it. They remove the rewards from mentor roulette and I can pretty much guarantee those EX trials will never pop for that sprout. Which could be a good thing, depending on how you view it.

[Rongway]

I'm asking this question because the arguments here seem to be from the point of view that the mentor queue is a reward for mentors. Something they can use to get extra rewards (or a mount).

No. I already said:

It's even a button I'm willing to press ten or more times a day for no reward, as the achievement tracker stopped counting my runs years ago.

None of my arguments are from a reward perspective. I did also say:

Castrum and Praetorium should not be in DR:Mentor, as there are plenty of people running those through DR:MainScenario for rewards that DR:Mentor doesn't even come close to providing. In this regard, the implementation is clearly wrong.

but the rewards are immaterial to the argument. There is an entire roulette just for Castrum and Praetorium that there is no shortage of people running purposefully. It's an utter waste of time to have a mentor sit through cutscenes that other people are volunteering to sit through when the mentor could be doing anything else that actually benefits from their participation.

[Krotoan]

This is why I don't think the "give more achievement points if ex" is a good idea. It just reinforces the fact that mentor is something you do for the mount, and only attracts more people who shouldn't be mentors to begin with.

I don't care about the mount, I just care to help others. That's how it should be.
BUT, as others have said, EXes shouldn't be done in DF, especially old ones even most veterans have no clue how to do, and most of the time it's just carrying an undergeared and unprepared sprout. Yes, mentors are there to help people, but not to carry them. From what I heard, rarely ever DF EXes result in a clear, even with all the help of mentors, because people who queue for them do so because the quest tells them so, they're actually unprepared for the difficulty, and often with very low ilvl. Very rarely it results in a clear no matter how much you try. And honestly, teaching EXes fights to someone who just started the game is not only something a mentor shouldn't have to do, but also something sprouts shouldn't waste time on. At that level people often don't even know how to turn on tank stance and things like that, they're just seeing 9men trials for the first time even in normal/hard mode, figures being ready for EXes. They just should make them unquable on DF, but JP works differently so....

Personally I see the fact they included EX dungeons on the Mentor Roulette an endorsement of the idea that mentors should be ready to help with whatever, even a "learning" run. I don't think they'd ever expect you to be fully 100% on every single roles responsibilities in every single EX (heck I forget most of them) , but I believe the philosophy is that you should at least be willing to help and use your understanding of common mechanics to figure it out.

Bluntly, it is. The whole purpose of every roulette in this game is to offer rewards to incentivize people that wouldn't sign up for certain content due to lack of desire, lack of reward (being a level 79, you'd never willingly sign up for sastasha for exp, for example), etc. So that way content that people need to do continues to get duty pops and doesn't just fall into obscurity and die off. mentor roulette is chock full of daily rewards along with extremely enticing glamours & a majestic 2-seater mount as a means to get people to sign up for it, much like all the other roulettes.

You're confusing incentives for the purpose though. The purpose is to get the content completed for people who might not either be able to organize things themselves or know where to start looking for assistance. The incentive is there to keep you doing it, not a reason for it existing. I don't think the roulette exists to be a prize chest for choosing to be a mentor, it just has incentives for doing it. I believe that is an important difference.

The issue with mentor contrast to the other roulettes, is that a subsection of the content of the roulette requires 5000% more effort than other parts of it, so people, upon knowing there's an incredibly high chance their time is about to be wasted, will leave. The rewards aren't enough of an enticement to keep them staying.

I'd have to look for it, but there's even a quote of Yoshi-P saying mentor roulette isn't about teaching new people. it's meant to get the duties of new players popping so even if other roulettes are barren, there'll still be players getting funneled to make sure sporuts don't get rail-roaded at an MSQ wall.

And that is a problem and one rooted in cultural differences probably. Japanese players being much more inclined to adhere to the spirit behind the mentor program as well as the newbies being far more inclined to prepare for the content without blindly queing it. I'm not saying that it's a great idea, just that that IS the idea.

it's not, but they should understand the opposing viewpoint of why the vast majority see it as a waste of time and rightfully choose to save their personal time by bailing than committing a full hour to something that may not even succeed. Especially when many players might not have more than say, 2 hours of playtime a night, spending half of it stuck in an EX trial might not be their idea of a fun time.

They should, but I see a lot of arguments that seem to assume functionality that wasn't intended.. its why I proposed my original question, to gauge what the perception of intended function was.. which I got maybe one answer to.

History has already shown this would result in a pretty dead queue.
Main scenario roulette at one point gave a worse reward than to just hard queueing dungeons of similar level; and it resulted in the queue being massively dead, causing roadblocks for new players till they had to ultra buff the roulette to convince people to do it again.

There is some degrees in there between what people are willing to deal with. MSQ Roulettes 2 insane time investments VS speedrunning and ruining the "experience" being it's own unique issue that Squeenix should address better. I think if we had a program that was voluntary to offer assistance for the rest of the content, it'd have a decently healthy population. Mostly I think the program currently attracts way too many status and reward seekers who will then exploit or manipulate the system to unintended effect or who outright don't understand the spirit of the program from the blinding prizes clouding their vision.

Out of any group of 100 people, very few people are going to queue for something 'just for the feels of helping someone'. the vast, vast majority need to be incentivized to do things. It's a simple reality, hence why the mentor roulette gives rewards + a very fancy mount in the hopes of convincing more people to run it. They remove the rewards from mentor roulette and I can pretty much guarantee those EX trials will never pop for that sprout. Which could be a good thing, depending on how you view it.

And I think that being exactly the problem. Mentor roulette, along with the mentor program rewards should never have existed. The individualist nature of non-japanese cultures does not result in the desired willing assistance, it results in begrudging tolerance for the shinies. People willing to help should have avenues to do so or a flag that assists newbies finding them without making them "exceptional".

EX and MSQ problems are troublesome and should probably be a different queue, but I'm still thinking if you're not willing to run the risk, maybe don't sign up for the prize, don't yell at the people who the system is meant to help or be a detriment to them.

No. I already said:

None of my arguments are from a reward perspective. I did also say:

but the rewards are immaterial to the argument. There is an entire roulette just for Castrum and Praetorium that there is no shortage of people running purposefully. It's an utter waste of time to have a mentor sit through cutscenes that other people are volunteering to sit through when the mentor could be doing anything else that actually benefits from their participation.

I'm relatively sure nobody runs the roulette for absolutely nothing. There are bonus tomestones and if you really wanted to run any other content at random you can pick another roulette.
You're still considering the point (at least partially) of the roulette here to be what the mentor gets out of it. And yet you never answered my question with anything other than statements about what you think it should be.. not an answer to my original question of what it was intended to be. Why do you feel it so necessary to restate what I have said I already know. I get it and have said as much. You think the system is wrong and redundant and so on. You have a very strong opinion about what it should be.. but again.. I didn't ask that.

[Rongway]

I'm relatively sure nobody runs the roulette for absolutely nothing. There are bonus tomestones and if you really wanted to run any other content at random you can pick another roulette.
You're still considering the point (at least partially) of the roulette here to be what the mentor gets out of it.

You're not listening.

It's even a button I'm willing to press ten or more times a day for no reward, as the achievement tracker stopped counting my runs years ago.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

Mentor roulette is broken and not what it seems to be ... the way Mentor roulette works is simple.

Mentor roulette goes backwards from the party that has waited the longest. It has nothing to do with sprouts or new players.
And because Ex trials dont fill, its why they pop up.

I now have about 2500 Mentor Roulette wins, and won all ex trials up to Sephirot, which is absolutely not possible imo.
Ramuh ex i won once! And this is where the problem of mindset happens.

Players: you don't df ex trials, everyone has a different progress point AND also a different mindset (go blind? Watch a guide?)
New player: Just queue, so far there was no challenge anyway.

If you queue for extreme let me give you a sample

Player 1: You
2: Has never done an ex trial
3: Does not read Chat
4: Does not basic grasp of his Job
5: For some reason in ilv 50 gear
6: Knows the fight but has not cleared
7: Queued for all languages and no communication is possible
8: Another Mentor

This is a sample of runs i had, there is just nothing to be done. I also keep reading stuff like "just queue in all languages so you get a faster pop for dungeons" and then i end up with 3 French ppl who i cant even tell what's happening.

If we can have a popup before Bozja and eureka, give us a pop up saying "your about to leave the handholding zone, this is endgame even if its lv 50 you either carry your weight or you will waste your own and everyone else's time"

If i see Ramuh or msq, i bail ... make a sandwhich, craft a bit and do something else. 30 Min Penalty does not mean i need to sit in front of the pc and feel bad.
Also, if you increase the punishment ... the reaction you think you get and the reality you will get wont match. You will scare of players, less will queue ... you wait longer and players will still toss.

Who cares if they had a 6h ban if they did their daily mentor roulette before going to bed/work.

[Krotoan]

You're not listening.

.. My entire point is you are not talking to me, you are talking at me about things I didn't ask.
The achievement tracker isn't the only reward, instances most of the time have their own rewards as well.

Running nitpicky mentor roulette when you're aware of what it entails along with the other roulettes existing with not those things in them is the most tenuous position ever for asking for them not to reinforce what mentor roulette was meant for in the first place.

[Lukha]

All I see here are cowards who don't want to put any effort into teaching new players, but want their rewards for doing so. It's the same as people who do main scenario roulette but complain they can't skip cutscenes: queuing for this roulette comes with a certain set of expectations, and if you don't like them you don't have to do the roulette, but don't do it anyway and then complain.

I get Extremes in mentor occasionally, and it's a nice change of pace from low level dungeons and guildhests. And when I get them, I do my best to actually explain mechanics, which tends to go over pretty well, despite how people love to meme on new players being 'bad' or hostile (they usually aren't unless you are). The few people who won't listen or get nasty get kicked and replaced.
I don't always get clears, but I get more clears than not, and sometimes I need to look up mechanics real quick because I haven't done that one in a while, but hey, the purpose of the roulette is to help people get through old content, I knew what I was getting into.

The only thing I'd change is that if you stay the full duty timer without a clear, it should still count towards your total because that time was spent putting effort into teaching.

[Nanchi]

Ex trials need to go. No question there.
Imagine playing on the EU datacenter and getting people who cannot speak English, the auto translate function is not advanced enough to explain the mechanic of an Ex fight.

Also to expect Mentors to know every single ex trial mechanic is a bit much, I know carrying the "crown" comes with certain responsibilities but the amount of stress is not worth the effort.

Also I do not trust randos to learn mechanics in a reasonable time frame if half the time I queue for any dungeon I get low-effort people who don't know how to play their job. 90% of people that use df for ex trials have probably no idea what they are doing.