How will Endwalker make crafting more of a brain dead activity like Shadowbringers?

[Jojoya]

There's not a single tool that beats the Skysteel tool without pentamelding unless I'm missing something. So it was best in slot unless you pentamelded. So obviously pentamelding is making crafting easier if it makes a substandard tool better than the Skysteel tool.

And please don't try and convince me that pentamelding doesn't make crafting easier. You just defended a loss of 16 Control points. Do you have any idea how much control you get from pentamelding? I have more than that on almost every piece of gear I have from hat to ring from pentamelding.

You can get HQ on Handsaint gear using food, syrup, and HQ materials and that's awesome, but someone who pentamelds Aesthete's gear can do that with NQ materials. Full HQ crafted gear without using HQ materials. I know you know what that means. I know you see the difference there.

You also keep stating over and over that this is your alt which means I'm pretty sure your main is Pentamelded and maybe that's why you want to defend it so much. Sorry, but I AM reading what you're writing. You're just not reading my responses.

You're confusing time investment with difficulty.

All pentamelded gear does is save time because you can skip making the intermediate crafts HQ. That's not difficulty.

So yes, of course I'm using my pentamelded Aesthete when on my main. I need to have it for Expert regardless so might as well take advantage of the time savings it offers when doing other crafting. There's no point in keeping a second set of gear that's just going to cause me to waste time without improving the end result.

Why such a huge chip on your shoulder over pentamelding? If you don't want to be bothered with pentamelded gear, don't use it. Use Landsaint instead. You'll still be able to make HQ items. If the additional time required bugs you, then use pentamelded gear.


You want to know the real difficulty in crafting? It's knowing how to use your actions to complete a craft instead of just following a guide someone else has written.

Take away macros and most crafters would be at a loss. Not even pentamelded gear would save them when they're randomly smashing buttons and hoping it works (though the game deciding to proc HQ despite quality only being at 6% might).

What else would make crafting more difficult? Randomize the progress/quality requirements each time you start a craft so what you did the first time won't work the second time.

So let's make crafting difficult by removing macros and randomizing requirements. I've gotten plenty of practice thinking on the go thanks to Expert so I'm game for the challenge.

Are you?

[Kabooa]

Are you?

Not really. Can you imagine having to make your raid potions like this?

In order for the randomization to mean anything, starting from 0 would effectively be a death knell without the expert crafting conditions coming into play. For the sake of argument.

Lets say currently craft macros land you in 125% of what you need for quality. Seems reasonable for overstat and 100% guaranteed macros. Obviously macros are CP inefficient and don't take advantages of goods. So you're more likely to get 250-350% of the quality requirement without expert conditions if you try.

So in order to break macros, you just need to set the bar at 125% what it is currently, and add a randomizer of 0-25%.

Of course, that only breaks speed macros. Safety 100% macros are an entirely different beast. I personally didn't update some and got to see what it could do when gear upgraded, and we're talking ranges of like 150-225% of the needed quality in long, 3-4 macro set ups.

So now you need to adjust the rate up to around 200% of what we have currently and apply the randomizer (or even don't).

But you know, I bet you could still macro it higher, so to break macros completely, you'd have to set the randomizer closer to 225-250% of the base requirements, and lock people in at the start so they can't just back out.

Not going to lie. That doesn't sound fun to me.

And by 'macros', I don't mean in-game macros. Macros only automate what you're going to do anyways. So I'm just manually inputting my 47 step solution and eating the 5-15% chance of NQ potions each time because changing that up to a potential 35-72 steps based on RNG to get 100% is plain and simple not worth my brainspace.

[Nabril]

You're confusing time investment with difficulty.

All pentamelded gear does is save time because you can skip making the intermediate crafts HQ. That's not difficulty.

So yes, of course I'm using my pentamelded Aesthete when on my main. I need to have it for Expert regardless so might as well take advantage of the time savings it offers when doing other crafting. There's no point in keeping a second set of gear that's just going to cause me to waste time without improving the end result.

Why such a huge chip on your shoulder over pentamelding? If you don't want to be bothered with pentamelded gear, don't use it. Use Landsaint instead. You'll still be able to make HQ items. If the additional time required bugs you, then use pentamelded gear.


You want to know the real difficulty in crafting? It's knowing how to use your actions to complete a craft instead of just following a guide someone else has written.

Take away macros and most crafters would be at a loss. Not even pentamelded gear would save them when they're randomly smashing buttons and hoping it works (though the game deciding to proc HQ despite quality only being at 6% might).

What else would make crafting more difficult? Randomize the progress/quality requirements each time you start a craft so what you did the first time won't work the second time.

So let's make crafting difficult by removing macros and randomizing requirements. I've gotten plenty of practice thinking on the go thanks to Expert so I'm game for the challenge.

Are you?

Sure. Just make end game crafting the same as expert and also remove pentamelding. You yourself just said you need to pentameld to do expert so let's see you do it without it. Same difficulty and no pentamelding. Tell me that you wouldn't find it difficult.

Oh and random does not equal skill.

NOTHING in crafting can be made to require skill unless they programmed in the need for a complex series of equations that built on each other in order to force the crafter to have to work out some complex math with a series of timers so that he or she would have to work quickly to beat.

THAT is the definition of skill. Not waiting to see which button is highlighted next or simply the inability to use a macro.

Don't confuse tediousness with skill. Also, I reiterate- drop your pentamelds for expert crafting or stop complaining about it all being too easy.

[Jojoya]

Not going to lie. That doesn't sound fun to me.

I don't anyone would find it fun. But the complaint was things are getting to easy and crafting needs more difficulty so it was a suggestion to address that.

Sure. Just make end game crafting the same as expert and also remove pentamelding. You yourself just said you need to pentameld to do expert so let's see you do it without it. Same difficulty and no pentamelding. Tell me that you wouldn't find it difficult.

Oh and random does not equal skill.

NOTHING in crafting can be made to require skill unless they programmed in the need for a complex series of equations that built on each other in order to force the crafter to have to work out some complex math with a series of timers so that he or she would have to work quickly to beat.

THAT is the definition of skill. Not waiting to see which button is highlighted next or simply the inability to use a macro.

Don't confuse tediousness with skill. Also, I reiterate- drop your pentamelds for expert crafting or stop complaining about it all being too easy.

Expert was designed specifically with pentamelded gear in mind. Take away the pentamelding and SE would lower the progress/quality requirements to what they feel is appropriate to Handsaint gear.

But thanks for briging up Expert, it supports another point I mentioned earlier about how HQ material have more of an impact on reducing difficulty than pentamelding. We're not allowed HQ materials in Expert. HQ materials can grant up to 50-75% quality increase by themselves on other recipes. That means no effort other than to complete progress and you've got a 50% chance of getting a HQ result. You don't consider that making things easy?

Part of the appeal of MMOs is the player ability to customize their character. Pentamelding allows that. Scrip gear doesn't. Why would you want the option removed?

You're still not explaining why you have a big chip on your shoulder over pentamelding.

I never said RNG was skill. How you choose to react to RNG - that is skill. Do you make a good choice or a bad one?

[Nabril]

I never said RNG was skill. How you choose to react to RNG - that is skill. Do you make a good choice or a bad one?

There is no such think as skill in crafting. There never was. There never will be. It's crafting.

I keep trying to get that point across. Crafting in this game was designed to be engaging, not difficult. It was designed to be interactive and interesting, not the equivalent of working out the physics of the universe. Why do "elite crafters" want things to be harder? Greed. Every single thread on this subject has the exact same reasoning: Now everyone crafts and we don't make as much money anymore.

Solution: Every single one wishes the math would be just hard enough so that only they can still do it. The problem is that nearly every crafter can do math so that won't work. No, the only solution is to just admit that crafting isn't hard no matter how much they mess with our action bars. It's interactive and engaging. THAT was what it was designed for.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they increased the math requirements for crafting. I'd love to see the complaints here on this forum when those that asked for it to be more difficult started complaining that it's now too hard! Imagine needing a calculator and a spreadsheet to determine what button you pushed next! Imagine if the equation being used was one that you couldn't enter on a standard calculator.

I just don't get all of the hate here. Square Enix created something interactive and engaging and players continually complain about it not being hard enough because there are too many people enjoying the content.

...Unless you can show me a source or something that shows that the original intent of crafting was to be super difficult. I haven't seen it. As far as I can tell, I just don't see it. It looks like something that was meant to be fun.

[Liam_Harper]

Why do "elite crafters" want things to be harder? Greed.

Why do "casual crafters" want things to be easier? Greed. You want the items without having to work for or pay someone else for them. You label effort as "tedious" when for crafters it's what made it satisfying. Why do you deserve the best items in the game on a plate for little work?

Crafting wasn't about skill, correct. Crafting was about patience and game knowledge. The leveling process making you feel like you were learning a profession, gradually improving over time and had that feeling of immersion. There was the satisfaction of making your own items and seeing them put to use. The theorycraft and research. Where do I find materia, how do I adjust this rotation to my stats, where do I gather these materials and putting the sum of your knowledge together. Sure you'll say it's "tedious" but many loved it and happily sank hundreds of hours into it.

Crafting has also always been about selling items. It's an endgame in itself, because what else are you going to do once you finally have that max level crafter decked out in fully melded endgame gear? In Stormblood and HW even casual crafters could make a large amount of gil selling furniture and non-master recipe items. There is no shame in enjoying making some gil from a profession you sank a lot of time into and labeling it as "greed" is ridiculous when you consider the "elite crafters" back in the day used to pour their time into writing guides, sharing rotations and trying to help the community join in.

[Nabril]

Why do "casual crafters" want things to be easier? Greed. You want the items without having to work for or pay someone else for them. You label effort as "tedious" when for crafters it's what made it satisfying. Why do you deserve the best items in the game on a plate for little work?

Crafting wasn't about skill, correct. Crafting was about patience and game knowledge. The leveling process making you feel like you were learning a profession, gradually improving over time and had that feeling of immersion. There was the satisfaction of making your own items and seeing them put to use. The theorycraft and research. Where do I find materia, how do I adjust this rotation to my stats, where do I gather these materials and putting the sum of your knowledge together. Sure you'll say it's "tedious" but many loved it and happily sank hundreds of hours into it.

Crafting has also always been about selling items. It's an endgame in itself, because what else are you going to do once you finally have that max level crafter decked out in fully melded endgame gear? In Stormblood and HW even casual crafters could make a large amount of gil selling furniture and non-master recipe items. There is no shame in enjoying making some gil from a profession you sank a lot of time into and labeling it as "greed" is ridiculous when you consider the "elite crafters" back in the day used to pour their time into writing guides, sharing rotations and trying to help the community join in.

First, it sounds like you're labeling me as "casual crafter". Care to define that term? What exactly do you think is a casual crafter? I craft all the time. I recently joined a new FC and took over the airships and submersibles. I crafted all new equipment and upgraded them all with new parts. I've crafted lots of workshop walls and I've made a lot of gil off of them.

So... what's a casual crafter in your mind? Someone who doesn't bitch about crafting being "easy" when crafting was always easy? Hell, all it takes is an investment in overmelding and one can craft anything he or she wants. I don't even need HQ mats because I threw in a few million gil into cramming 5 materia into each piece of equipment. It's that easy. One can simply buy ones way into endgame crafting. Overmeld=100% success with HQ items.

Funny how you "elite crafters" keep leaving that part out. Don't overmeld and you'll still get 100% success with HQ gear- you'll just need HQ mats.

And I leveled up all of my classes before the Firmament made that fast and easy. And I still think all these threads about making crafting harder are silly. All you have to do is petition SE to remove the ability to overmeld crafting equipment.

[Jojoya]

There is no such think as skill in crafting. There never was. There never will be. It's crafting.

If there is no skill, then everyone with the same gear would have the exact same success every craft attempt.

I don't see that happening, do you?

There is skill to crafting. It's called basic math skill. People with good basic math skills should have little trouble picking up crafting. Those with poor basic math skills are going to struggle. As Liam said, crafting knowledge is needed and knowledge is also a form a skill. Rote memorization of what each action does isn't going to help if you don't know how to put those actions to best use.

I've never claimed that crafting was ever hard or that it was intended to be hard. I won't even claim that SE's intent is to make crafting fun as opposed to just adding the standard MMO economic content that players have come to expect in RPGs but with a new twist to make it different from other games.

The problem with fun is that it is subjective. I know seen people post in the forums that crafting here should be like WoW's crafting because that's more fun, which blows my mind but that's their opinion.

Me, I'm having fun crafting so I'll keep doing it. It's a simple way to make some extra gil on top of what I make doing other content. I enjoy the Expert mini-game ("7 Rapid Synthesis failures in a row, can I still complete the craft at least minimum rating need to turn in?" crosses fingers while waiting to see what happens).

I get that others don't feel the same way and they're frustrated. So let's engage in constructive discussion.

What made crafting fun to each of us in the first place?
What changes would make it fun again for those who no longer find it fun?
Are expectations unrealistic because the player base is growing in size? More players naturally leads to more getting into the content along with more competition.

[Illmaeran]

What made crafting fun to each of us in the first place?
What changes would make it fun again for those who no longer find it fun?
Are expectations unrealistic because the player base is growing in size? More players naturally leads to more getting into the content along with more competition.

1. Originally it was the ability to make and repair 100% of my own gear when leveling. After that it was making enough Gil to buy a house, then make everything I could to decorate it with buying as little as possible. After that it was realizing that I'm not an endgame raider and gathering/crafting is an enjoyable way to spend time after finishing story arcs.

Yes, making money was always part of that, without question. It's the rare individual that gets into gathering and/or crafting in a more than passing fashion without one of their goals being making money. By its nature, gathering and crafting are about providing products to people which normally means taking part of an economy.

2. What changes would make it fun again? I got tired of the whole timed-node thing in HW into early SB and took a break from the game because of it. I'm not sure if they've actually changed things or if it's just my perception, but whatever it is that they changed has made gathering and making Collectibles enjoyable again. Do I sometimes rue the fact that crafting is more accessible now than it once was? Sure, it's nice to be a part of a smaller community of suppliers that makes more money for our effort. I don't begrudge the people who've gotten into crafting because of the changes though, they're entitled to enjoying the game they pay for as much as the rest of us.

What I'd LOVE to see changed is retainers not bringing back random high-value items that used to be craftable only. This, more than anything, is what I believe to be the cause of declining market prices. With tens of players getting things from their retainers that have a material cost in the tens of thousands and selling them for thousands because their "free" has really imbalanced thing.

As you've said before, they need to add high-value and/or uncommon items that are, and always will be, obtainable *only through crafting*. Give us the ability to make more mounts, Triple Triad cards, pets, awesome furnishings, and UPGRADE RAID GEAR that require increasing levels of gear/melding and attention when crafting (aka, not macro-able) so we have skills that are valuable to every player at all levels of the game.

3. I don't think our collective expectations are unreasonable. We do have to adjust to the increased competition and dropping prices, but we'll always be able to have fun crafting and will usually make money off it. That may require gathering and processing our own materials rather than buying stuff of the MB, but so be it if that's the case.