Are the numbers too high?

[Kaeko]

This post will probably fall on deaf ears. Not to be mean or argumentative here, but I think your post is made largely out of ignorance. I'll try to explain this objectively but it'll come off pretty long.

The vast majority of forum goers that choose to say stats don't work make the assumption that stats are % based, meaning if you go from 500 to 550 attack, you've just increased your DPS output by 10% because your stat increased by 10%. They don't realize that there are ways to manipulate internal formulas such that going from 500 to 550 attack can drastically improve your damage output.

The issue has to do with the concept of percentage gains versus linear gains. A large percentage of these posts are made with the notion that stat formulas must be percentage gain (they were overwhelmingly this way in XI), but in fact, having tested just about every stat since 1.20 came out, our LS pretty much has found that everything's a linear increase. This means that adding 50 attack is the same if your attack originally was 200 or 500. You still get at the same 'raw gain'. Again, this is quite different from XI's PDIF * base modfier attack formula most people seem used to here.

To tackle the very popular argument that stats must be useless because of "naked" primal runs, I'll start with Moogle. Your DD are going in naked with the sole exception of their weapon. They then make the claim that their gear doesn't matter, not realizing that it's not that gear doesn't matter, but instead that there is simply an imbalance with attack stat modifiers. Stats are incredibly useful - in fact one of them is SO useful that it completely trumps the usefulness of any other attack stat. This stat is Base Damage of the weapon. When you go in naked with an Ifrit bow, the vast majority of your attack is maintained on the weapon. So losing the remaining stats on your gear doesn't make 'naked DD' impractical. If we want to make an imbalance argument, it should be how base damage matters too much, not that stats in general are meaningless. Tell a group to clear moogle with 6 ARCs using weather shortbows, but they can wear any armor they want. They won't win.

Ifrit is a slightly different argument because the popular DD is THM. Magic DD spells have a high base damage inherently built it so it doesn't suffer the same imbalance as melee attack formulas do. Even though you'll get horribly resisted naked, you can probably clear Ifrit rather easily still using naked THMs in weather scepters. The best argument I can make here is that Ifrit is largely about fire damage (for which there is very little gear that affects the damage you take from elements right now) and damage mitigation through dodging TP attacks. It's a fight about evasion, not a 'gear check' fight. You can argue the merits of this from a battle perspective, but I think it's unfair to completely assess the nature of stats in XIV on that 1 fight. I actually don't know how much damage a GLA with a base 54 DEF takes on swipes, but would be interesting to know.

I'm far from a XIV white knight. I just feel the need to actually know what's going on before I critique something. Again, having seen the testing for just about every stat over the past 2 months, I actually find the stat formulas in this patch quite elegant. Very few were overpowered or "broken" (couple are like base damage in my opinion). The community mods like Bay and Ruk likely don't play XIV to the extent that they know the formulas (nor would 1 expect them to), so I really hope that when they rely posts like this, the devs hold off until the community has a more accurate general understanding of things.

All this being said, it's a community forum and everyone's got a right to their opinion. So if you still feel the need to argue for sweeping changes, have at it. Cheers.

[Rydin]

The vast majority of forum goers that choose to say stats don't work make the assumption that stats are % based, meaning if you go from 500 to 550 attack, you've just increased your DPS output by 10% because your stat increased by 10%. They don't realize that there are ways to manipulate internal formulas such that going from 500 to 550 attack can drastically improve your damage output.

Thats my main point... Stats matter very much... Its just the gear doesn't give the stats you need.... Linear or percentage based... Internal formulas can also be manipulated so that you could get minimal gain from a 500 to 550 increase
Attack is only part of the formula... a formula that is still not completely understood by any of us. In fact it's one of 5 stats that influence damage (And not the most important one at that). A nominal increase in 1 of 5 stats. That's what it boils down to

The issue has to do with the concept of percentage gains versus linear gains. A large percentage of these posts are made with the notion that stat formulas must be percentage gain (they were overwhelmingly this way in XI), but in fact, having tested just about every stat since 1.20 came out, our LS pretty much has found that everything's a linear increase. This means that adding 50 attack is the same if your attack originally was 200 or 500. You still get at the same 'raw gain'. Again, this is quite different from XI's PDIF * base modfier attack formula most people seem used to here.

The problem is players see increases as percentages. If you were dealing 100 damage per hit and now you are dealing 110, your mind tells you that you hit 10% harder...
regardless if the formula is percentage based or linear. The base of it is... people want to increase stats and hit harder... take less damage..
And its not happening because there is no stat to increase enough to see a huge difference in damage dealt (Once you are using the highest damage output weapon)

To tackle the very popular argument that stats must be useless because of "naked" primal runs, I'll start with Moogle. Your DD are going in naked with the sole exception of their weapon. They then make the claim that their gear doesn't matter, not realizing that it's not that gear doesn't matter, but instead that there is simply an imbalance with attack stat modifiers. Stats are incredibly useful - in fact one of them is SO useful that it completely trumps the usefulness of any other attack stat. This stat is Base Damage of the weapon. When you go in naked with an Ifrit bow, the vast majority of your attack is maintained on the weapon. So losing the remaining stats on your gear doesn't make 'naked DD' impractical. If we want to make an imbalance argument, it should be how base damage matters too much, not that stats in general are meaningless. Tell a group to clear moogle with 6 ARCs using weather shortbows, but they can wear any armor they want. They won't win.

I didn't use naked gear runs to prove stats are useless... In fact I proved the opposite... The reason people can do naked gear runs is because you're stats are relatively close when fully geared and nude.
That is exactly the point of this thread.
But I don't know that it is just that... Damage output without question is the most important stat... But pretty much all of your attack power is a base stat also...
I've never said stats dont work... In the OP I said the point is they do work, the problem is most gear gains are too small (Compared to your base DD stats with an ifrit weapon for example) to make any kind of difference
and in terms of perspective... Saying that damage output matters too much and saying the other stats don't matter enough... well thats saying the same thing

Ifrit is a slightly different argument because the popular DD is THM. Magic DD spells have a high base damage inherently built it so it doesn't suffer the same imbalance as melee attack formulas do. Even though you'll get horribly resisted naked, you can probably clear Ifrit rather easily still using naked THMs in weather scepters. The best argument I can make here is that Ifrit is largely about fire damage (for which there is very little gear that affects the damage you take from elements right now) and damage mitigation through dodging TP attacks. It's a fight about evasion, not a 'gear check' fight. You can argue the merits of this from a battle perspective, but I think it's unfair to completely assess the nature of stats in XIV on that 1 fight. I actually don't know how much damage a GLA with a base 54 DEF takes on swipes, but would be interesting to know.

He'd be hit hard... I'm sure... and this is completely speculative.. but I think he'd still take more damage overall from the magic attacks than the swipes
You're right about Ifrit. I said Ifrit is a Magic defense fight. Which is why I pointed out that Fire Resistence is the same fully geared or naked

I'm far from a XIV white knight. I just feel the need to actually know what's going on before I critique something. Again, having seen the testing for just about every stat over the past 2 months, I actually find the stat formulas in this patch quite elegant. Very few were overpowered or "broken" (couple are like base damage in my opinion). The community mods like Bay and Ruk likely don't play XIV to the extent that they know the formulas (nor would 1 expect them to), so I really hope that when they rely posts like this, the devs hold off until the community has a more accurate general understanding of things.

I have never said anything about the formula... in fact... saying that the root of the problem lies in the fact that the stats themselves suffer imbalances (namely the stat boosts from gear and materia) implies that, by and large, the formulae are fine

All this being said, it's a community forum and everyone's got a right to their opinion. So if you still feel the need to argue for sweeping changes, have at it. Cheers.

I don't think the formulae need changing...
No where did I imply this. I have argued just the opposite... For people to stop saying stats don't work.
I read your blog and your parse results are always extremely insightful
I respect you and I don't understand why you keep asserting that I am implying that stats dont matter when I'm obviously saying they matter... they just aren't being increased enough through gear and materia to make the best gear and melds worthwhile

What if base damage on the best weapon was 50 instead of 171, Then it would be easier to influence your damage by influencing the other stats

[Rydin]

Hello,

Is it possible that we are looking at this wrong?

Perhapse SE's intention was that stats from equipment should be unimportant? Perhaps the intent is that those pieces of equipment should be able to give a LITTLE extra help, a little extra edge. But otherwise not be that important? Perhaps the goal really was a 10-20% boost (depending on how good and how much materia you add)?

This would fall in line with the 'casual' intent? So casual adventurers would 'at worst' be only 10-20% behind the most hardcore adventurer, and therefore not feel bad?

Maybe I'm mistaken and SE has said something to the opposite. Or not. But some nice sticky from the devs posted till the end of time on this topic would be well appreciated.

thats only true if SE expects casual players to be nude.
Thats why Yoshi puts a big emphasis on high level crafted gear being what it is.
Its not hard to come by. Nude should be crap damage because even casual players wont be naked

So long as I'm not dealing 9,999 (let alone 99,999), I don't really care about the stat numbers. It's an MMO, there will be retardedly high numbers. Also XIII does this too. Oh well.

Well thats what we're heading towards. There are games that I shall not mention where players are dealing 15k of damage per hit

I am aware of that, I've seen the people beating endgame stuff in santa outfits, but I believe that to be a different issue entirely. Though, I'd rather see them reduce naked stats or increase the stats from gear (More likely the former than the latter), rather than divide stats across the board.

Its absolutely this issue... the fact that my damage dealing stats when nude are comparable to my DD stats fully geared
(Which once again, Kaeko, is not an indictment of the formulae. Its an observation that gear stats are a glaring affront to arrow kneed adventurers everywhere)
all things being relative you could do any or all three of those things
My personal preference would be lower stats though... Thats just me

[Malakii]

My only thing to add to this wither Rydin right or Kaeko is right is what is the point of getting the best gear in the game if their barely going to help you. The best gear in the game should be a very noticeable difference then the second best or what you can craft. It make new content old after the first time you beat it. Why try for all the gear if it only gonna give you 10% increase or less. It pointless. So wither they need to remake the system where as Kaeko said you only increase by a raw data and change that or like Rydin said they need to lower the stats so the stats and materia we have actually mean something. Overall i think here is the main system needs to be changed. If it's SE attempt to keep casual and softcore player up with the hard core that is retarded. Their is a reason why their separate, it's because they put more time and effort into the game. Just because real life sucks for some of you have a life outside the game more then others don't mean you need to be on equal level or just barely behind. Let the hard cores be hardcore and the casuals be casual. Where they stand on uber > mediocre scale shouldn't matter.

[Kaeko]

First off, the "stats don't matter" mantra is kind of misleading because you're right, neither of us are actually arguing for this. I'm sorry it came off that way (rereading it, it definitely does so I apologize).

What I am arguing though, is the idea that "big numbers" somehow make the current gains we see any less effective. The part that you wrote that I really latched onto was this:

Thats what I'm saying....
If your attack is 40... then +4 is a 10 percent increase
If your attack is 588... the +4 attack is laughable

Lets do a comparison... with my same Lancer
Damage Output
Fully geared 151
Nude, wearing only Ifrit Harpoon 151

Attack
Fully geared 588
Nude wearing only Ifrit Harpoon 532

Strength
Fully Geared 296
Nude wearing only Ifrit Harpoon 256

Piety
Fully geared 276
Nude wearing only Ifrit Harpoon 235

Magic Defense (Everything Ifrit does is Magic Damage, accept the swipes that only hit the tank)
Fully Geared 356 fire resistence
Wearing only the Ifrit Harpoon 356 Fire resistence

And THAT is why people can beat Ifrit Naked

The ONLY THING I get from Gear is defense....
which, even for the tank, does very little against Ifrit anyway

And as far as the damage stats... Damage Output is by far the most important....
Stats matter... they're just so high that its difficult to bring about a noticeable change

Bolded red for emphasis.

I posted to really pinpoint this argument, but probably digressed too much into Moogle/Ifrit. From what I can gather from your first couple replies, you are stating that somehow the stats being a high number requires the increases to be substantially larger (basically a scaling argument). And the crux of my response is this is a common argument that holds absolutely true in XI mechanics due to how the internal formulas work, but not in XIV.

Moving to smaller numbers doesn't inherently fix anything other than give the appearance that your +3 X stat is now more meaningful. This is because of linear gain. Let's use ATK and DEF for example since it was brought up in an earlier post. You take a R50 GLA with 650 DEF (basic gear) out to stronghold and he may take around 70 damage a shot from a R50-R52 mob. You increase defense to 750 (a 15% increase in total DEF), and you'll see that damage drop to 35ish (or a 50% decrease in damage). The reason this happens is due to linearity of the formula. For every DEF you add, you get X damage reduction. So the fact you started with 650 doesn't really change anything.

The reason I mentioned that the stat formulas were "elegant" has to do with prevention of overpowered builds. Because just about every stat increases so readily with rank, it prevents a player from generally being able to do something crazy like solo an R80 mob (there are still ways to do this, but that's another discussion entirely). It adds inherent balance.

****

Specifically regarding your reply, the general 'feel' I get from it is that you want the stat increases from gear to influence the outcome of fights more (correct me if I'm wrong or point me to any specific line you'd want a specific response to). This I think is a valid argument but I would consider that more a function of the fights themselves than stats. From what I gather, what you really want are "gear check" fights in XIV.

For instance, if you want the 10 min moogle achievement, you're probably going to need at least a couple of those moderately well geared Ifrit Bow archers. The fastest Moogle time I've seen was 7:42, but you can leisurely complete the non-speed run Moogle in 15+ minutes with half the DD potential. Lots of leeway. If SE had made the fight more difficult (say made it 10 minutes to win, not 10 minutes to get a reward-less achievement), gear would be more of a necessity. The theoretical change I just mentioned here is typically called a "gear check" fight. There are no gear check fights that have additional rewards in XIV right now since speed runs don't reward you with anything in game.

Perhaps the real push for change should be adding rewards to more difficult side achievements. Take Moogle again. You can win in 30 minutes like normal and have a shot at a weapon. But if you complete the 10 minute achievement, you get another item (I don't know, a crown or something). Can take this further. Say they started keeping track of "record times" like XI did, but at the end of every week, the 8 players that go the best record time got something. This would add incentive to "1-up your competition" while giving casuals wins. But again, this isn't even about stats anymore then.

These posts get too long and I know they are a pain to read so I'll cut it off here. I'll end again by just saying it's a community forum so all opinions should be welcome and I respect yours.

[Vackashken]

I agree 100% with OP

[Rydin]

I posted to really pinpoint this argument, but probably digressed too much into Moogle/Ifrit. From what I can gather from your first couple replies, you are stating that somehow the stats being a high number requires the increases to be substantially larger (basically a scaling argument). And the crux of my response is this is a common argument that holds absolutely true in XI mechanics due to how the internal formulas work, but not in XIV.

2 points...
1. the biggest thing I wanted to show with that part was that the stats fully geared and the stats nude were not that different
2. When you have multiple stats that affect 1 aspect (like damage dealing), higher stats mean that increasing any 1 stat has less impact on the whole

Moving to smaller numbers doesn't inherently fix anything other than give the appearance that your +3 X stat is now more meaningful. This is because of linear gain. Let's use ATK and DEF for example since it was brought up in an earlier post. You take a R50 GLA with 650 DEF (basic gear) out to stronghold and he may take around 70 damage a shot from a R50-R52 mob. You increase defense to 750 (a 15% increase in total DEF), and you'll see that damage drop to 35ish (or a 50% decrease in damage). The reason this happens is due to linearity of the formula. For every DEF you add, you get X damage reduction. So the fact you started with 650 doesn't really change anything.

The issue is... Its not working like that
The difference from your base stat to your well geared stat isn't causing huge gains like that
Its not the 70 vs 35 hits.... its the 500 vs 465 hits that really shine a huge light on the inconsistencies of the stats. And thats the problem...
Also... if 650 wasn't "base" and a majority of that 650 was from gear... having 750 def would still cause a 35 hit in this example... but being nude would be a lot more than 70 damage...

The reason I mentioned that the stat formulas were "elegant" has to do with prevention of overpowered builds. Because just about every stat increases so readily with rank, it prevents a player from generally being able to do something crazy like solo an R80 mob (there are still ways to do this, but that's another discussion entirely). It adds inherent balance.

ok... so stat caps are elegant.... I agree.... I would use the term "Beneficial"
but yea... I agree

Specifically regarding your reply, the general 'feel' I get from it is that you want the stat increases from gear to influence the outcome of fights more (correct me if I'm wrong or point me to any specific line you'd want a specific response to). This I think is a valid argument but I would consider that more a function of the fights themselves than stats. From what I gather, what you really want are "gear check" fights in XIV.

To an extent... i guess...
I don't want to have to have the best triple melded gear to beat something... I want to have to use strategy... but I also don't want to be able to beat it nude...
So a gear check in that we need gear... you've got to be wearing SOMETHING
Even if it changes so that those "Base stats" are present in all gear starting at the level 1 stuff.... just so long as when you're naked... You die...
I don't think thats asking too much that we get owned when we go into a fight with a God naked

For instance, if you want the 10 min moogle achievement, you're probably going to need at least a couple of those moderately well geared Ifrit Bow archers. The fastest Moogle time I've seen was 7:42, but you can leisurely complete the non-speed run Moogle in 15+ minutes with half the DD potential. Lots of leeway. If SE had made the fight more difficult (say made it 10 minutes to win, not 10 minutes to get a reward-less achievement), gear would be more of a necessity. The theoretical change I just mentioned here is typically called a "gear check" fight. There are no gear check fights that have additional rewards in XIV right now since speed runs don't reward you with anything in game.

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat (Which in retrospect is a gross cliche')
Here is an example of what I mean....
My crafting tool gives roughly 50% of my total craftmanship and the gear gives another 50%
I notice a big difference when crafting nude or having craftmanship boosted on a magic craftsmanship synth
For DD.... None of the actual gear other than your weapon has any stats that greatly affect how much damage you deal... period... materia or not
Changing the time on the fights is not the answer either...
You can absolutely do the speed run with a bunch of naked, Ifrit Bow Archers....
the thing that makes it tough is not a lack of DPS... its that you're getting hit a little harder so you spend more time healing. When honestly, a bunch of naked archers should get destroyed and not be able to beat it at all, and should do crap damage
I guess what this thread should have been called is "Not enough difference between naked and fully geared, in terms of stats and also real battle conditions"

Perhaps the real push for change should be adding rewards to more difficult side achievements. Take Moogle again. You can win in 30 minutes like normal and have a shot at a weapon. But if you complete the 10 minute achievement, you get another item (I don't know, a crown or something). Can take this further. Say they started keeping track of "record times" like XI did, but at the end of every week, the 8 players that go the best record time got something. This would add incentive to "1-up your competition" while giving casuals wins. But again, this isn't even about stats anymore then.

That really is another issue entirely....

These posts get too long and I know they are a pain to read so I'll cut it off here. I'll end again by just saying it's a community forum so all opinions should be welcome and I respect yours.

At the end of the day... Yoshi-P has his vision
And for a level 50 character fighting a level 55-60 MOB (I know thats such a vague group with a diverse range of enemies with varied stats... so this is not a set-in-stone deal), on average.... I'd like it if it scaled like this:
The MOB hits you
with no gear on you take 100% damage
with Outdated Gear you take 30% damage (that you would have taken nude)
with up to date gear you take 24% damage (that you would have taken nude)
and fully geared and materia you take 20% damage (that you would have taken nude)
edit: I had these numbers higher but I think you should get completely OWNED when nude

When you hit the MOB
Fully geared with Materia you deal 100% damage
Up to date Gear you deal 90% damage (That you would have dealt fully geared with materia)
Outdated Gear you deal 75% damage (That you would have dealt fully geared with materia)
Naked but with the Ifrit weapon or whatever you deal 50% damage (You get the idea)

I know the increases are not percentage based... the percentages are derived from each value relative to the other scenarios
Thats just how I'd expect it to scale...
And obviously on lower level or higher level MOBs the percentages would change being that the formulae do indeed appear to be more linear

[Elexia]

Yeah, base stats are way too high which leads to equally as high numbers needed to boost performance in a very noticeable manner.

[Jinko]

It seems to me they have obviously take into account future gear.
At level 99 we will be seeing much bigger increases in stats, stop thinking of lvl 50 as end game and it won't seem so bad.

I agree the difference between being fully geared and naked is a bit disconcerting, most MMO's are heavily dependant on armour (WoW for example), I have to admit I would like gear to have much more meaning, but then I would also like to see the Materia sysyem die in a fire.

As has mentioned regarding weapons, the damage stat should be reevaluated and possibly derived from a calculation of other stats such as ATK, STR and DEX, same for magic based weapons, obviously being INT and MAG ATK and MND and Healing.

[Kaeko]

I guess to your response that stats don't work the way I mentioned, all I can say is it depends on the situation. The situation I outlined actually does occur, but not all situations show such a drastic change. This again has to do with the way the stat checks occur and linearity. I don't think this is the proper forum to start arguing 1s and 0s so I'll just leave it at that.

I think due to the absolute number of threads complaining about stats, there is something that irks to community greatly despite not really having an understanding of how they work. So from this perspective you're definitely in the majority and myself the minority on the issue. At this point I don't really see anything coming out of a line by line back and forth, so I'll just call it on my end.