Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

[Enkidoh]

I routinely tank and heal and this is a good answer.

If I'm on PLD and I mass pull and the healer is struggling? You bet your @$$ I'm going to use Clemency. A dead tank is a dead party.

My Healer derps and dies on a boss with no RDM/SMN to get them up? I've saved Multiple runs with good time Clemencies.

When I'm on WHM and I see a tank Clemency-ing? More Holy Spam for me! Holy does more damage than tanks AoE in general anyway.

^This. Also, there are two potential aspects of PLD where casting Clemency could be considered necessary as part of a PLD's skillset (or at least keeping HP up to maximum) - Divine Veil needs a heal cast on the PLD to activate, and although a lot of PLDs like to save it for later (such as a battlefield wide AoE), given the effect lasts for a fair while if no damage is taken, it can be just as beneficial casting it near the start so procing it via Clemency is definetely acceptable (not to mention DV's cooldown isn't too long so you could potentially use it several times in a fight).

The other potential requirement for Clemency as part of another PLD ability is for Spirits Within which on paper at least does more damage the more HP you have (so theoretically at full HP you do the most damage), however this isn't nearly as effective in reality as Spirits Within has a long cooldown and thus cannot be spammed (if if could, then that would change everything). Also it was my understanding the ratio between current/total HP and damage potency with that particular ability caps around half current/total HP so it wouldn't be quite so critical to keep HP up.

Also Clemency has a trait of healing the PLD casting it by half the normal amount if it's cast on a party member, so it's clear SE actually wants players to make use of it as a pseudo-healer, (which is not surprising given towards the end of 1.0 PLD pretty much was a backup healer due to the only actual healing class/Job in the game being CNJ/WHM - SCH and AST did not exist back then, so PLD's healing skills made sense), as why else would it have such a trait if they did not want you to heal your party? Of course it's entirelly situational, but dismissing it's use outright only handicaps the player in the long run.

[Raltar]

The only acceptable time to use it is when there is no healer present(for example, the healers are dead).

[Liam_Harper]

Honestly, as healer I don't mind Clemency that much as long as they aren't spamming. It's not optimal and I'd prefer they didn't, but it's not the worst thing in the world and sometimes they're just trying to be useful even if it's misguided.

Other healers are a far bigger issue for me. Endless wasted overheal, 100% uptime HoT's and shields when there's no damage, no dps and terrible uptime are rampant in DF, far more so than paranoid Palas.

[Nethereal]

The only acceptable time to use it is when there is no healer present(for example, the healers are dead).

Or during down time and you won't be in your mana combo after you come out of down time.

[TaleraRistain]

As a WHM main, I probably won't even notice you casting it in normal content. I'll just see that your health is good and keep dpsing or turn my attention to someone who isn't doing good.

I don't see a reason to get bent out of shape if a PLD uses it. I figure if a PLD is using it at like 70%, some healer let them down in the past and they're gun shy. So I just try to show them I have their back.

In more hardcore content where every action counts, yeah, communicate with your party and work things out. Otherwise just use it if you think it will help. And if the healer gets snotty, that's on them.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

If you see me start spamming Cure II/Adlo/Benefic II just to heal a PLD, I’d be thankful if they want to pitch in a Clememecy under their magic burst phase. If not... welp, there goes my cooldown, but whatever, more 1 button spamming it is!

Also good invuln usage is planned for TBs and such, not last resort.

Very much, this.
If any, in this case Clememecy is actually the last resort button. Not bene, not essential, not excog, not tetra, not hallowed ground, etc. Healers can rotate through their abilities just like tanks can rotate through their defensive cooldowns. Once we start using them regularly, it gets addicting, we wouldn’t want to save it anymore. They are ‘cooldowns’ for a reason. Let them be on cooldown appropriately.

[Naoki34]

"You know you dont need to heal me, i got it"
"Why are you healing him just do your own stuff"

Hi all, I am not an expert tank by any means, but I just wanted to discuss or calibrate, is there a Clemency Ethics for PLD?

Are there any times where it's unacceptable to use? Or is it always unacceptable to be used, even that we can tell they are struggling, unless Healers are dead?

Any opinions from healers as well, when do you think it's appropriate to use? What do you think about Clemency in general?

It's not a bait guys, I am just trying to be better at my role, and will take any input. Thanks!

There are healers who think that healing themselves as a tank is an insult to their families and their egos: "What? I'm too lame to heal you well, right?"

And when I come across healers who just heal when you're at 15% max HP. It's also really suck.

I think a good BL and we go to the next one.

There are worse things than tanks that auto-heal, slow tanks that advance pack by pack...

In DRK, I auto-heal with Abyssal Drain and no heal has ever complained, there is injustice for PLD.

[Rongway]

When I'm on WHM and I see a tank Clemency-ing? More Holy Spam for me! Holy does more damage than tanks AoE in general anyway.

Only until PLD learns Holy Circle. Holy is more potency per second than T.Eclipse+Prominence but Holy Circle Spam beats Holy by a wiiiiide margin.

Holy 140p x 1.3 (M&M2) / 2.5s ≈ 72.8 p/s
(T.Eclipse 120p + Prominence 220p) / 5.0s x 0.7 (Tank Mastery) ≈ 48 p/s

Requiescat 550p + 5 x 1.5 (Req.) x H.Circle 250p / 5 / 2.5s x 0.7 (Tank Mastery) ≈ 136 p/s
Requiescat 550p + 4 x 1.5 (Req.) x H.Circle 250p + 1.5 x Confiteor 800p / 5 / 2.5s x 0.7 (Tank Mastery) = 182 p/s


Edit: Applied 0.7x multiplier for Tank Mastery as per Akh Morning's F(AP) formulas for non tanks vs tanks

[NanaWiloh]

Honestly, as healer I don't mind Clemency that much as long as they aren't spamming. It's not optimal and I'd prefer they didn't, but it's not the worst thing in the world and sometimes they're just trying to be useful even if it's misguided.

Other healers are a far bigger issue for me. Endless wasted overheal, 100% uptime HoT's and shields when there's no damage, no dps and terrible uptime are rampant in DF, far more so than paranoid Palas.

Well DF has no coordination people are not assigned to handle any one thing. A Ant colony has more coordination then a party/raid in DF does.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

In DRK, I auto-heal with Abyssal Drain and no heal has ever complained, there is injustice for PLD.

The gripe is PLD has to stop attacking to heal themselves. DRK gets Abyssal Drain & Soul Eater, WAR gets the infamous Nascent Flash & Equilibrium, GNB gets Aurora. None of those actions require them to break their combos nor stop attacking. Healers oGCD also do not allow them to stop spamming their damage kits. PLD’s Clemency do.

Only until PLD learns Holy Circle. Holy is more potency per second than T.Eclipse+Prominence but Holy Circle Spam beats Holy by a wiiiiide margin.

Holy 140p x 1.3 (M&M2) / 2.5s ≈ 72.8 p/s
(T.Eclipse 120p + Prominence 220p) / 5.0s ≈ 68 p/s

Requiescat 550p + 5 x 1.5 (Req.) x H.Circle 250p / 5 / 2.5s = 194 p/s
Requiescat 550p + 4 x 1.5 (Req.) x H.Circle 250p + 1.5 x Confiteor 800p / 5 / 2.5s = 260 p/s

Damage per potency doesn’t seem an accurate metric to compare when magical classes has higher damage per potency to compensate their nonexistent auto attacks vs physical classes, I thought...