Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

[Artemiz]

Please don't Clemency with me I've been saving my benediction for the last second

Have you communicated this to the tank? do they play with you frequently and know to trust you to the last second? Good tanks are many things but they are not psychic. The healer and tank relationship is based on trust, if I don't know you I can only trust you so far and "last second" is certainly pushing it. The first job for every player is to stay alive and a dead tank very easily turns into a wipe.

[ZedxKayn]

Have you communicated this to the tank? do they play with you frequently and know to trust you to the last second? Good tanks are many things but they are not psychic. The healer and tank relationship is based on trust, if I don't know you I can only trust you so far and "last second" is certainly pushing it. The first job for every player is to stay alive and a dead tank very easily turns into a wipe.

If they die, it's on me, likewise as a tank, if I die while I was expecting a bene (though I shouldn't because I'll at least pop my invuln), I'll tell the healer to use bene.

[Artemiz]

If they die, it's on me, likewise as a tank, if I die while I was expecting a bene (though I shouldn't because I'll at least pop my invuln), I'll tell the healer to use bene.

The blame game after a wipe is great and all but I'd rather not have the wipe, personally. Don't get me wrong, I rarely use Clemency, I'm certainly not advocating people use it frequently and as a tank I learned a long time ago to recognize and trust good healers. I'm just pointing out that if you leave the tank until the "last second" you are expecting maximum trust from a player who doesn't know you, at least in DF. You can't really moan if they use Clemency in that situation as bad healers do exist, even ones in good gear.

[ZedxKayn]

The blame game after a wipe is great and all but I'd rather not have the wipe, personally. Don't get me wrong, I rarely use Clemency, I'm certainly not advocating people use it frequently and as a tank I learned a long time ago to recognize and trust good healers. I'm just pointing out that if you leave the tank until the "last second" you are expecting maximum trust from a player who doesn't know you, at least in DF. You can't really moan if they use Clemency in that situation as bad healers do exist, even ones in good gear.

I get it, I don't care that much when a PLD uses a clem or two as long as it's not spamming it at 40% or something, just sadge because last second benes are satisfying

I think though that there's room to learn from failures in such situations either from the tank or the healer depending on the CDs used

[Allegor]

I see my HP go below ~40 ish I will use Clemency, I don't care if you were waiting for me to drop invuln and then throw a Bene, I've got too many cases of WHM not healing at all that I simply don't trust WHMs anymore.

[Artemiz]

I get it, I don't care that much when a PLD uses a clem or two as long as it's not spamming it at 40% or something, just sadge because last second benes are satisfying

I think though that there's room to learn from failures in such situations either from the tank or the healer depending on the CDs used

I can see your point as I know dungeons can be grindy especially for experienced players who know they have everything under control.

I agree about learning from failure as well, that's kind of the problem though as what I learn from most wipes is, I should have used Clemency lol. I don't advocate for saving Hallowed Ground for ohshi moments, pop that bad boy nice and early so you get to use it a couple of times instead of never.

[Rita1989]

There are PLD even in this thread that seem to stuck in the old mentality that using Clemency to "let your healer dps" on big pulls is still good when AoE on PLD is good enough that you shouldn't be prioritizing a gcd to Clemency ever outside of an emergency. This is not HW anymore where your AoE moves were flash and CoS your not making up the DPS with your healer anymore by doing it.

[Powercow]

For raids, it's nice for prog if your healers are having trouble keeping up, like if one dies and the other has to rez, etc. It's nice for manually popping Divine Veil during phase transitions too.

For dungeons, it's useful if the healer is dead and... pretty much that's it. Dungeons aren't dangerous enough to need you both on healing duty to keep you up, unless you're standing in every AoE marker you possibly can.

Remember tank attack potencies are cut in half to compare to other jobs.

Holy Circle [250p] under Requiescat [->375p] is notably stronger than Holy [140p], and you generally shouldn't need more than oGCDs and the occasional regen for single target boss fights, with sometimes a hardcasted group heal mixed in. Yes, Holy does stun but everything stunnable should be on full DRs before you even need to think about actually casting heals on the tank. Regen and oGCDs combined with the first few stuns should be more than enough to keep your tank alive for ~10 seconds, then assess from there.

There is a *theoretical* use for Clemency in very, VERY coordinated raid scenarios since Holy Spirit [350p], even under Requiescat [->525p], isn't as strong as Glare [300p] (assuming equal gear, both materia'd out for DPS, etc.) In addition, Requiescat-Clemency is significantly stronger than Cure II, even without the benefit of casting it on others, and Glare is much cheaper than Cure II so it'll save the whm some mana.
That said, this strategy is extremely tight on timings, requiring the tank to be knocked to low enough HP for a Cure II to be needed, during the Requiescat phase, and the healers have to be out of oGCDs to heal with (otherwise they should use those, and use Holy Spirit AND Glare)... all for a comically small rDPS gain. Also this doesn't apply to sch or ast. And no, hardcasting Clemency to let the WHM use Glare is not a good idea. The autoattack delay results in much more DPS lost, as well as less oath gauge (meaning fewer Shelltrons/Interventions). Still worth mentioning for the sake of being pedantic.

[Jettinson]

I use it mostly to self-proc divine veil or to help out the healers in 24 mans when the poop is hitting the fan to alleviate some pressure on them.

I mostly use for that reason because healers will barely touch any GDC heal and it is pointless having divine veil proc after whole party getting hit... (which happens a lot from lv56 until oGDC party heal) unless it is a multi hitting stack

[Artemiz]

For raids, it's nice for prog if your healers are having trouble keeping up, like if one dies and the other has to rez, etc. It's nice for manually popping Divine Veil during phase transitions too.

For dungeons, it's useful if the healer is dead and... pretty much that's it. Dungeons aren't dangerous enough to need you both on healing duty to keep you up, unless you're standing in every AoE marker you possibly can.

Remember tank attack potencies are cut in half to compare to other jobs.

Holy Circle [250p] under Requiescat [->375p] is notably stronger than Holy [140p], and you generally shouldn't need more than oGCDs and the occasional regen for single target boss fights, with sometimes a hardcasted group heal mixed in. Yes, Holy does stun but everything stunnable should be on full DRs before you even need to think about actually casting heals on the tank. Regen and oGCDs combined with the first few stuns should be more than enough to keep your tank alive for ~10 seconds, then assess from there.

There is a *theoretical* use for Clemency in very, VERY coordinated raid scenarios since Holy Spirit [350p], even under Requiescat [->525p], isn't as strong as Glare [300p] (assuming equal gear, both materia'd out for DPS, etc.) In addition, Requiescat-Clemency is significantly stronger than Cure II, even without the benefit of casting it on others, and Glare is much cheaper than Cure II so it'll save the whm some mana.
That said, this strategy is extremely tight on timings, requiring the tank to be knocked to low enough HP for a Cure II to be needed, during the Requiescat phase, and the healers have to be out of oGCDs to heal with (otherwise they should use those, and use Holy Spirit AND Glare)... all for a comically small rDPS gain. Also this doesn't apply to sch or ast. And no, hardcasting Clemency is not a good idea. The autoattack delay results in much more DPS lost, as well as less oath gauge (meaning fewer Shelltrons/Interventions). Still worth mentioning for the sake of being pedantic.

From a theory crafting perspective you make very good points. Where this becomes a very much grey area though is DF content with randoms. Shaving off a GcD is much less important if the healer is trying to get his cat off his keyboard, the MNK is stood in all the bad, chewing crayons and only Jesus knows what happened to the BLM.