Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Lauront]

sounds to me you need to read up on the story hades straight up admitting all the sundering did was split a person into 14 parts ... where hades him self has caused the death of billions of this split up people

Here is what Hades said:



Here is what Elidibus said:



So no, they were not "admitting" that all it did was split a person into 14 parts. Emet-Selch is saying it reduced them across all their attributes; Elidibus is saying the Echo is but a fraction of the powers the ancients possessed in their fullness. We also know that man was much longer lived at the time:



French version:

[16:00] Emet-Selch : Allons... Pensais-tu que nous autres Asciens étions incapables d'avoir des sentiments ?
= “Come now… Did you really think us Ascians were incapable of having these sentiments?”

[16:00] Emet-Selch : Je suis vexé ! Notre palette d'émotions est aussi riche que la vôtre, si ce n'est plus !
= “I am vexed! Our palette of emotions is just as rich as yours, if not more!”

[16:00] Emet-Selch : Rien ne manquait là-bas, dans le véritable monde. Amitié, amour, bonheur... Nous avions tout.
= “Nothing was missing there, in the true world. Friendship, love, happiness… We had everything.”


[16:01] Emet-Selch : Nous coulions de beaux jours, paisibles et joyeux. Nos âmes étaient fortes, nous étions quasiment immortels.
= “We enjoyed beautiful, peaceful and joyful days. Our souls were strong, we were practically immortal.”

[16:01] Emet-Selch : Nous n'avions pas à endurer tous ces conflits nés d'un manque de temps. Des désaccords pouvaient survenir, bien sûr, mais c'était avant tout une grande et belle harmonie qui prédominait.
= “We did not have to endure all these conflicts born of a lack of time. Disagreements could arise of course, but it was above all a great and beautiful harmony that prevailed.”

[16:01] Emet-Selch : Les rues de notre cité rivalisaient de splendeur. Elles étaient surplombées d'une haute tour, elle-même couronnée d'un soleil radieux et caressée par de douces brises.
= “The streets of our city competed in splendor. They were overlooked by a tall tower, itself crowned with a radiant sun and caressed by gentle breezes.”

Characterisation from the short story:

In a time long forgotten, men and gods were one and the same. And upon the star that was their home, men ruled supreme over the corporeal world, within and without which existed an aetherial realm.

Throughout the ages, this realm has been called many names, but in the beginning it was known as the Underworld─the place to which departed souls returned. As water flows to the sea and rises to the sky before raining upon the land once more, the Underworld was a fundamental part of the circle of life. And for this reason, it was regarded at once with familiarity and reverence by men, who, despite their godlike powers, could not claim dominion over it. Wise though they were, they could catch only fleeting glimpses of the realm, channel but a sliver of its power, and do naught to control its ceaseless flow.

The ancients were an exceptionally long lived race. The sundering did not simply "split" them into 14 parts. It follows from this that the dilution reduced the lifespans of the sundered significantly. Hence the claims that the sundering has caused more death than the 14 rejoinings ever will; again, rejoinings which will ultimately result in the full restoration of the soul.

At least to me, everything I learned about Amaurot in Shadowbringers told me that they were a society eventually headed to collapse, regardless of the Final Days. They were extremely arrogant and wielded the powers of creation as if they were gods.

Quite incorrect. For one, they did border on gods anyhow given their innate powers. For another, they were rather responsible in how they wielded these powers, regulating the use of dangerous or subversive concepts and also ensuring that knowledge was shared for the common good. Were there elements in their society which we, who live in more individualistic societies, would find peculiar? Like their policy on robes and masks to avoid engendering feelings of want/disparity? Yes, but it has little to do with being "extremely arrogant". As a society of nigh immortal beings with deep wellsprings of magical power, their method of organising their society seems entirely logical to me. Of course outside Amaurot it may differ somewhat but we have no real way of saying, as this is based on text regarding Amaurot.

Of course they wouldn't view any new life as being worthy to exist. But what gives them the right to make that decision? Their society collapsed due to what seemed like to be its own making and Venat's rebellion even said that Zodiark was a temporary measure and the Final Days would happen again if they stayed the course.

Yes, we do not know the reasons why she believed this. We do not know whether she was correct. We do not know whether the Sundering was even intended. What gives Venat the "right" to sunder the star? Why do the Ascians not have the "right" to correct this, when ultimately any lives lost are in their view are the decayed souls of their own people, thanks to the Sundering? Souls that will be reborn as whole upon the completion of their plan.

We also don't know what it was like outside of Amaurot at the time. We do know that there were farm villagers though. Were they also perfect beings capable of creation magic and gifted with long lives? We also know there was death, Emet-Selch's Tales from the Shadows describes the Underworld and that all souls come back to it. I'm not sure that the old days were as "perfect" as the Amaurotians think it was. Azem certainly didn't think so if they refused the Convocation's help repeatedly and spent all of their time outside the city.

It scarcely matters. If beings besides the ancients resided outside in other settlements, even if they lacked similar powers/longevity, they too would be divided 14 times over and suffer dilution.

Your conclusion regarding Azem doesn't follow either. The Convocation as a whole was tasked with governing the entire star. If Azem were to call upon them every time there was an issue, that Azem or their companions could resolve themselves, they would be wasting their time.

Bit late, but I don't think characters like Tiamat or Middy are so powerful because there Unsundered, I think it's just because there Dragons and Dragons are naturally freakishly powerful.

No one is saying they are unsundered in the sense that they are ancients. They are unsundered in the sense that their world was not shattered by the Sundering.

Were giving no indication that Mortal's from the Shards are inherently weaker then Mortals from the Source. And we have been given no indication that "Immortal boundless wells of Aether" is the natural state of all Sapients from other worlds.

A red herring. No one is saying that, nor is whatever happens in other worlds from other FFs relevant to XIV's own unique cosmology.

Mortals from other shards do not differ from those on the Source to the degree an unsundered Ascian/ancient differs to a sundered one, but it is false to say there is no inherent difference; see here:

Beq Lugg
Any other time, and I would have dismissed your stories as balderdash and flummery. But upon closer inspection, 'tis plain their souls are far denser than is normal. And that they do not possess true bodies.
Save you. Your body is your own.

And your soul is the densest of them all.

We do not know why they're not yet manifesting slowly a closer proximity to the ancients but nonetheless the difference between sundered and full unsundered is definitely there. Another source:

4. Emet-Selch remarks that we are of the Source, "seven times rejoined". Is he talking about our soul, or only the world? If our soul has been rejoined, does that mean everyone on the Source has been rejoined to another soul-fragment each Calamity, or are we (and perhaps other specific characters) special in some way?
Oda: Each time there is a rejoining, any living things have the souls rejoined. This is true for everyone equally. The souls get more dense, and potentially more powerful.

Yoshi: The Rejoining isn't just for the characters, but for the whole world. Of course, this does apply to yourself, as well.

Given the attempt to directly strip her of her memories so as to make her fall in love with him again, yeah parallels with sexual violence are applicable.

He is trying to restore her ancient persona, i.e. the one corresponding to her full shard. His soul mate. I therefore think such a parallel misses the mark entirely.

Again, the Ascians are cruel to each other. Fandaniel quite obviously doesn't want to save the world: he wants to destroy it. (At least so he says, and the only way he can be redeemed is by the story going "actually he's lying because Reasons".) Emet-Selch wants to rejoin the worlds to restore the lost Amaurotines via further sacrifice, and in doing so he doesn't even bother to check up on what happened to Mitron. Elidibus doesn't even remember why he's doing what he does, and he's the nicest Ascian we've met apart from Gaia. Lahabrea keeps ranting about the One True God, so he's clearly out of it, to the point where when his True Death is confirmed, Emet-Selch went "lol he was dumb". I don't even know what Nabriales was trying to do other than gloat at us for whatever reason.

And Mitron attempts to forcibly keep Loghrif by his side, despite her express denial as Gaia, so he's definitely evil, in the "sexual harassment lawsuit" kind of way.

None of this is necessary to cause the rejoinings. The Ascians we've met (again, other than Gaia/Loghrif) were cruel for the sake of being petty jerks.

So yes, I believe the Ascians are evil, because they don't even treat each other as equals and respected colleagues.

I'm not going to argue that their relationship to each other was perfect but...

1) Elidibus tried to convince Fandaniel out of his position. Fandaniel isn't exactly sane (or is at least working to a very opaque agenda), anyhow, or on board with the broader Ascian agenda, and has a deeper backstory. In spite of his spurning of the ancient world, he invokes a term that appears to be distinctly ancient; the Telophoroi.

2) Emet-Selch's main concern is indeed the restoration of the ancient world. The sundered Ascians are in their view replaceable but at the same time, even if Mitron was to be rejoined with the star, he would become one with his Source shard. And it is the Source shard which is their ultimate goal to restore to its full self as that will then allow them to restore the full ancient. Mitron assumed Emet-Selch knew he was there but did not wish to disrupt the aetheric balance the world had settled on. We don't know if Emet-Selch actually knew he was there inside a sin eater. And even if he did, for the aforementioned reasons, it doesn't matter that greatly. Emet-Selch possessed the keenest soul sight of them all, and that soul sight would permit him to see the degraded state of the soul.

3) Elidibus does not remember out of choice, because he considers that all he needs is devotion to his duty. Emet-Selch does not agree with him but also does not force him to do it. This also helps Elidibus be unrelenting in fulfilling their goal. Hades sets up a plan to relieve him of this burden. It is clear from the short story that it was painful to him to see the state of both Elidibus and Lahabrea.

4) Lahabrea's identity was worn down from body hopping.

All of this is down to how long they have been at this, and the toll it is taking on them - a task they deem necessary to correct the sundering and restore the star, and their people. They are also working with shards that are not the fully restored versions of the people they wish to restore. All of this the result of what the sundering did to their world.

I see this less as "evil" and more as the result of the circumstances they're working under. They plainly do not view sundered souls as equivalent, even if they can awaken the ancient persona in them, and they are objectively much weaker than an unsundered soul - again, Lahabrea had to severely weaken himself to get to the point he got.

To me they are the tragic heroes of a fallen civilisation. Not "evil".

Lohgriff and Mitron are complicated.... After all it was their promise to be together no matter what even after all those eons... Its not like hes some stalker that wants a random girl, its more like wanting your wife back that suffered Amnesia. I Kinda hate how it resolved, i really wished for him to just side with us and Gaia awaken just enough of her memory to feel for him again... having another ascian on our sides would've been nice.

I'm hoping we see that with 6.0.