Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

And even then its never stated he "worked with the Sundered" in the sense of actually explaining the situation to them, just that Emet tried to see if they could be comparable in his biased eyes while still actively working toward his goals even as he grew to love his First Born mortal son.

That's a really, really generous interpretation of "working with them". You can't "work" with someone you fully intend to betray at a later date and call it giving it an honest try.

Just wanted to point out that "working" with the sundered is pretty much explicitly stated by Emet-Selch in the last quest of 5.0 "Shadowbringers" as a response to you saying you will stop him

Emet-Selch:

"Did you now? One last do-or-die attempt to foil my plans before your mind dissolves into madness?
How very, very...heroic of you."

"In every single age, there is always someone who wants to stand up to the evil Ascians."

"Always the same arrogance, the same insistence that the world belongs to them. As if theirs were the only rightful claim, theirs the only existence worthy of preservation!"

"Even now, after everything, you refuse to see reason.
You think it unfair that you are subject to suffering? That your lives will be sacrificed for the ancients?"

Emet is tweaking at this point you can really tell he's slowly ripping apart at the seams the line delivery is really good but the important part is this-

Emet-Selch:

"Look at me! I have lived a thousand thousand of your lives!"

"I have broken bread with you, fought with you, grown ill, grown old! Sired children and yes, welcomed death's sweet embrace."

"For eons have I measured your worth and found you wanting! Too weak and feeble-minded to serve as stewards of any star!"

"Have your recent spats with Vauthry and his sin eaters taught you nothing?"

"Have you not learned that your ignorance and frailty beget only endless misery?"

"How long do you mean to perpetuate this farce? How much more must I endure your bumbling interference?"

The ascians are guilty of genocide from a sundered point of view and they aren't goody two shoes I assure you! But, Emet did genuinely try. As we learned from Tiamat, mankind without any ascian interference is going to fight amongst itself, the people of Meracydia fought over territory and only compromised once they went to a higher power in Bahamut who served as mediator. I can't fault Emet for believing that a world of inhabitants who kill each other at the drop of a hat is a far cry from the Utopia he once knew and loved.

[thegreatonemal]

Just wanted to point out that "working" with the sundered is pretty much explicitly stated by Emet-Selch in the last quest of 5.0 "Shadowbringers" as a response to you saying you will stop him

Emet-Selch:

"Did you now? One last do-or-die attempt to foil my plans before your mind dissolves into madness?
How very, very...heroic of you."

"In every single age, there is always someone who wants to stand up to the evil Ascians."

"Always the same arrogance, the same insistence that the world belongs to them. As if theirs were the only rightful claim, theirs the only existence worthy of preservation!"

"Even now, after everything, you refuse to see reason.
You think it unfair that you are subject to suffering? That your lives will be sacrificed for the ancients?"

Emet is tweaking at this point you can really tell he's slowly ripping apart at the seams the line delivery is really good but the important part is this-

Emet-Selch:

"Look at me! I have lived a thousand thousand of your lives!"

"I have broken bread with you, fought with you, grown ill, grown old! Sired children and yes, welcomed death's sweet embrace."

"For eons have I measured your worth and found you wanting! Too weak and feeble-minded to serve as stewards of any star!"

"Have your recent spats with Vauthry and his sin eaters taught you nothing?"

"Have you not learned that your ignorance and frailty beget only endless misery?"

"How long do you mean to perpetuate this farce? How much more must I endure your bumbling interference?"

The ascians are guilty of genocide from a sundered point of view and they aren't goody two shoes I assure you! But, Emet did genuinely try. As we learned from Tiamat, mankind without any ascian interference is going to fight amongst itself, the people of Meracydia fought over territory and only compromised once they went to a higher power in Bahamut who served as mediator. I can't fault Emet for believing that a world of inhabitants who kill each other at the drop of a hat is a far cry from the Utopia he once knew and loved.

I used to think this line was brilliant but he's tempered. He cannot see the merits of the other side as he was when he made that statement. He's done all of that not from truly a human perspective but one here he can die and simply come back and watch again.

Also his is a group of people who was willing to let a bunch of people die to a volcanic eruption when they could of easily helped. It took Azem just saying screw that and he was punished for it. Emet has no leg to stand on in anything.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

I used to think this line was brilliant but he's tempered. He cannot see the merits of the other side as he was when he made that statement. He's done all of that not from truly a human perspective but one here he can die and simply come back and watch again.

Ironically I actually think the fact that he is immortal and is going to live forever to see the world crumble and rebuild itself but was still willing to try to be the tragedy of his character a broken man who wanted to change but circumstances led him to be unable to let it go, like Hythlodaeus says "'Tis truly a terrible weight he has chosen to carry."

On the point of tempering I am admittedly ignorant if this has been contradicted elsewhere but as far as I know enthrallment is characterized with "single-minded devotion to their primal's will." Zodiark's will is "salvation of the star" and Ascians who are tempered go against that pre-programmed message.

Mitron's goal to compress the world into a "single perfect moment" doesn't sound like "bring back our brethren and make the world whole" Zodiark/Hydaelyn tempering as I mentioned in a previous post in the thread is something we don't have a lot of info on. Hell, we don't even know IF Hydaelyn tempers or the logistics of it.

EDIT:

"Debate and Discourse"

Also my post from before on the sidequest "Debate and Discourse" was all about Amaurot's unwillingness to interfere on the rest of the world because of the respect to the autonomy of other nations and they don't wanna cross that line. I think the story was to illustrate that Azem can't help but get involved with other people because thats who they are and regardless of punishment they want to be doing stuff and make a difference rather than standing idle.

[Slatersev]

Just wanted to point out that "working" with the sundered is pretty much explicitly stated by Emet-Selch in the last quest of 5.0 "Shadowbringers" as a response to you saying you will stop him



The ascians are guilty of genocide from a sundered point of view and they aren't goody two shoes I assure you! But, Emet did genuinely try. As we learned from Tiamat, mankind without any ascian interference is going to fight amongst itself, the people of Meracydia fought over territory and only compromised once they went to a higher power in Bahamut who served as mediator. I can't fault Emet for believing that a world of inhabitants who kill each other at the drop of a hat is a far cry from the Utopia he once knew and loved.

Oh I know the lines, my point is that for as much as I love Emet, he can't really talk about the things he does with mortals as proof of giving it an honest shot when he was still actively working for Rejoinings the entire time.

Like, simply put, he never states he put his plans on hold to try to really see what the Sundered life could be. He actively worked to manipulate them the entire time, so even when he was "trying", it can't really be read as a fully sincere attempt because there was never a time where he wasn't sabotaging them.

It's like joining a company wanting and expecting it to fail, actively working to make sure it does and then pointing at it and going

"See, it could never work". It's simply impossible to take it on good faith.

Which is kinda the point, for as much depth as they gave him, his words are obviously supposed to be tinged with his bias'. Were not supposed to take literally everything he said at face value. Especially with things like YoshiP pointing out at fanfest we haven't gotten Hydaelyn/Venat's side of the story

His Moral Relativism line for example, an amazing line but he contradicts it alot, and his short story especially makes it pretty obvious he's actively lying to himself about it.

Which in some ways makes him more sympathetic, and in some ways makes him worse, because on some level he knows what he tells himself isn't true but he is still using it as a justification.

It's really complicated, messy and contradictory, all on purpose by the writers, and its great. Makes him a fantastically nuanced character. But all that nuance doesn't mean he can't also be full of shit at times, and when it comes to his claims about sincerely trying with mortals, he totally is. But again, that's what makes him great

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Oh I know the lines, my point is that for as much as I love Emet, he can't really talk about the things he does with mortals as proof of giving it an honest shot when he was still actively working for Rejoinings the entire time.

Like, simply put, he never states he put his plans on hold to try to really see what the Sundered life could be. He actively worked to manipulate them the entire time, so even when he was "trying", it can't really be read as a fully sincere attempt because there was never a time where he wasn't sabotaging them.

It's like joining a company wanting and expecting it to fail, actively working to make sure it does and then pointing at it and going

"See, it could never work". It's simply impossible to take it on good faith.

Which is kinda the point, for as much depth as they gave him, his words are obviously supposed to be tinged with his bias'. Were not supposed to take literally everything he said at face value. Especially with things like YoshiP pointing out at fanfest we haven't gotten Hydaelyn/Venat's side of the story

His Moral Relativism line for example, an amazing line but he contradicts it alot, and his short story especially makes it pretty obvious he's actively lying to himself about it.

Which in some ways makes him more sympathetic, and in some ways makes him worse, because on some level he knows what he tells himself isn't true but he is still using it as a justification.

It's really complicated, messy and contradictory, all on purpose by the writers, and its great. Makes him a fantastically nuanced character. But all that nuance doesn't mean he can't also be full of shit at times, and when it comes to his claims about sincerely trying with mortals, he totally is. But again, that's what makes him great

Really good post! I also love Emet's writing and I do hope that we get so see some of him in Endwalker.

We know he hasn't fully dissolved in the mass of souls that is the life stream and he still retains consciousness and can be called upon as we see during Seat of Sacrifice. If our Lightwarden charged blade of of light knocked the tempering out of Emet and if we have a means to call upon him with the Azem stone I would love to pick the brain of "Hades" so to speak. Not shackled by his duty just the man from Amaurot with an affinity for the afterlife.

[thegreatonemal]

Ironically I actually think the fact that he is immortal and is going to live forever to see the world crumble and rebuild itself but was still willing to try to be the tragedy of his character a broken man who wanted to change but circumstances led him to be unable to let it go, like Hythlodaeus says "'Tis truly a terrible weight he has chosen to carry."

On the point of tempering I am admittedly ignorant if this has been contradicted elsewhere but as far as I know enthrallment is characterized with "single-minded devotion to their primal's will." Zodiark's will is "salvation of the star" and Ascians who are tempered go against that pre-programmed message.

Mitron's goal to compress the world into a "single perfect moment" doesn't sound like "bring back our brethren and make the world whole" Zodiark/Hydaelyn tempering as I mentioned in a previous post in the thread is something we don't have a lot of info on. Hell, we don't even know IF Hydaelyn tempers or the logistics of it.

EDIT:




Also my post from before on the sidequest "Debate and Discourse" was all about Amaurot's unwillingness to interfere on the rest of the world because of the respect to the autonomy of other nations and they don't wanna cross that line. I think the story was to illustrate that Azem can't help but get involved with other people because thats who they are and regardless of punishment they want to be doing stuff and make a difference rather than standing idle.

That's the thing though. He didn't come at this with even the slightest hint that his mind could be changed. He did that just to prove he was right all along. He's too far tempered to even consider that what he might be doing isn't the best course of action. His entire experiment was in bad faith it meant nothing. We have more info on tempering as of 5.5 and the sundered Acians themselves are a special case.

[Cilia]

[Emet-Selch's] Moral Relativism line for example, an amazing line but he contradicts it alot, and his short story especially makes it pretty obvious he's actively lying to himself about it.

Which in some ways makes him more sympathetic, and in some ways makes him worse, because on some level he knows what he tells himself isn't true but he is still using it as a justification.

It's really complicated, messy and contradictory, all on purpose by the writers, and its great. Makes him a fantastically nuanced character. But all that nuance doesn't mean he can't also be full of shit at times, and when it comes to his claims about sincerely trying with mortals, he totally is. But again, that's what makes him great

Exactly. Exactly.

For all of his talk, Emet is pretty transparently lying to himself and not really acting on good faith. This is best demonstrated in Amaurot, when he starts up the Final Days recreation for the dungeon as a test of the Scions' mettle; when they prevail against his expectations he just says their performance was underwhelming and they still aren't worthy. He sets people up to fail so when they do so he can just say "See? Still not as great as the Ancients!" and if they succeed he just moves the goalposts.

What makes him (and the Ascians in general) particularly tragic is not what happened to them, but their belief they can go back to the good old days of Amaurot if they just complete the Rejoinings and have Zodiark do his disco; the Sound, and Zodiark's summoning to stop it, created an irreconcilable rift in Amaurotine society. Even if they succeeded, it's very, very unlikely things could go back to the way they were before. (I'd even go so far as to argue at least some Ancients would be extremely unhappy with the price paid to bring them back and revolt by summoning a check against Zodiark that's even more powerful than Hydaelyn.) Elidibus realizes the folly of his crusade in his final moments, bound to it as he may be.

It's part of what makes them such wonderful antagonists, in my opinion. They are given to the same vices they condemn humanity for, tragically fighting for a cause that was lost before they even started. Perhaps back in the days of Amaurot the world was a utopia... but that time has long since passed and will never come back, Rejoined world and resurrected Ancients or no. While their motivations are sympathetic, considering that...

This bears reiterating: Zodiark is neither good nor evil. He is only as good or evil as his creators, who despite their declarations to the contrary are demonstrably not perfect beings. (The same applies to Hydaelyn as a corollary, despite attempts to demonize her for her own failings.)

[PondHollow]

Evil and unqualified good are for children. The playerbase is mostly adults. We can do without such notions.

Zodiark is a tool.

I think an interesting question is whether he still even exists, and what would his purpose be. I expect him to be in disrepair and off purpose, possibly Hydaelyn too.

Elidibus was clearly malfunctioning.

And for some reason the Convocation came to believe that their people could be resurrected. The metaphysics of that makes no sense to me, even if resurrection is possible -- and everything suggests that it is not possible whatsoever. You sacrifice 3/4 of your population to make two creatures with specific purposes, and then all your remaining 1/4 of the people die or are converted to other things, and then you want to harvest the dregs in the Rejoining, to resurrect what? The 1/4? Wouldn't you need to harvest Hydaelyn /and/ Zodiark to bring back the full population? And that's with lossless conversion, a pipe dream even in magicks shown in-game.

If they believed such a foolish thing for so long, it's likely Zodiark's tempering came to be what every primal's tempering is: a means to self-sustainment, and nothing more. What remains of the primals is likely amoral.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Exactly. Exactly.

For all of his talk, Emet is pretty transparently lying to himself and not really acting on good faith. This is best demonstrated in Amaurot, when he starts up the Final Days recreation for the dungeon as a test of the Scions' mettle; when they prevail against his expectations he just says their performance was underwhelming and they still aren't worthy. He sets people up to fail so when they do so he can just say "See? Still not as great as the Ancients!" and if they succeed he just moves the goalposts.

What makes him (and the Ascians in general) particularly tragic is not what happened to them, but their belief they can go back to the good old days of Amaurot if they just complete the Rejoinings and have Zodiark do his disco; the Sound, and Zodiark's summoning to stop it, created an irreconcilable rift in Amaurotine society. Even if they succeeded, it's very, very unlikely things could go back to the way they were before. (I'd even go so far as to argue at least some Ancients would be extremely unhappy with the price paid to bring them back and revolt by summoning a check against Zodiark that's even more powerful than Hydaelyn.) Elidibus realizes the folly of his crusade in his final moments, bound to it as he may be.

It's part of what makes them such wonderful antagonists, in my opinion. They are given to the same vices they condemn humanity for, tragically fighting for a cause that was lost before they even started. Perhaps back in the days of Amaurot the world was a utopia... but that time has long since passed and will never come back, Rejoined world and resurrected Ancients or no. While their motivations are sympathetic, considering that...

This bears reiterating: Zodiark is neither good nor evil. He is only as good or evil as his creators, who despite their declarations to the contrary are demonstrably not perfect beings. (The same applies to Hydaelyn as a corollary, despite attempts to demonize her for her own failings.)

The thing is 90% of this isn’t proven. We don’t know if they could go back to that time or not, or if the rejoinings would work. There’s nothing really to lead us to believe it wouldn’t work that is. They empathize just how superior the unsundered/ancients are to the sundered multiple times and in various ways. We can talk all day about what could happen or what is but it’s best to talk about what we know as fact instead of headcanon because then information gets misconstrued and people start getting the wrong ideas on things.As far as Emet goes, all the short story shows imo is that he had kept testing mortals to see if they could be improved or changed. His son's death seemed to have a big impact on him which reinforces the way his views were. I think its safe to say it was still a difficult task for him, but in the end it doesnt change reality in what he saw. The main reason that they are tragic heroes is that they bear the burden and tough decisions to see their world restored. The sundering put them in this difficult position in the first place, so they can trade some ease and discomfort now for the sake of restoring their world and the original souls/lifespans, or they abandon it all and fade away. I dont think they were "perfect beings" but they were certainly better than the sundered and mortal beings we see. As for Zodiark and Hydaelyn, i dont think either of the primals are necessarily evil. It's moreso the hearts which will dictate that which, we can inference about how they would. Elidibus is described as kind and caring in the short story, whereas we see Venat willing to go against a majority of the community for hers and a few others' for reasons unknown. So if they primals take aspects of their heart on..well. Its hard to say exactly as Venat is very much a wild card right now. But they didnt choose the name for no reason

[KizuyaKatogami]

Snip

Just wanted to say btw, this is a very nice thought out post with lots of actual in text citations and research done! Ty for the enlightenment