Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Theodric]

sounds to me you need to read up on the story hades straight up admitting all the sundering did was split a person into 14 parts ... where hades him self has caused the death of billions of this split up people

The Sundering is effectively identity death. Aside from making the afflicted individuals weaker, it forcibly separated the Ancients from their families, friends, neighbours and pets. Not only that but it robbed them of their memories and was pushed upon them without their consent.

Once again, I'll post this as it comes from the writers themselves:



The Sundering is not presented as a positive thing or a stable state and everything that came afterwards is a consequence of the Sundering itself. It's worth noting, the Ascians initially attempted to work with the Sundered and even lived amongst them - only to find them lacking and far removed from their own loved ones who they wished to bring back. Some of the Scions outright admit that they would do the same thing if placed in Emet-Selch's position.

[EaraGrace]

Did you really just compare Mitron and Loghrif’s situation as the “sexual harassment lawsuit” kind of way?Seriously?

Given the attempt to directly strip her of her memories so as to make her fall in love with him again, yeah parallels with sexual violence are applicable.

The Sundering is not presented as a positive thing or a stable state and everything that came afterwards is a consequence of the Sundering itself. It's worth noting, the Ascians initially attempted to work with the Sundered and even lived amongst them - only to find them lacking and far removed from their own loved ones who they wished to bring back. Some of the Scions outright admit that they would do the same thing if placed in Emet-Selch's position.

A position they quickly reject as such rejoinings would results in millions of innocents dying, to which Emet responds by claiming they were not human ergo he wouldn’t be murdering them.

We can recognize the position the Unsundered were in without ignoring the very real ways they tried to justify genocide.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Given the attempt to directly strip her of her memories so as to make her fall in love with him again, yeah parallels with sexual violence are applicable.



A position they quickly reject as such rejoinings would results in millions of innocents dying, to which Emet responds by claiming they were not human ergo he wouldn’t be murdering them.

We can recognize the position the Unsundered were in without ignoring the very real ways they tried to justify genocide.

So what about the genocide caused by the sundering and the lives that are lost due to the unnatural nature of the mortal souls? No one seems to be addressing that in that the rejoinings would save more lives in the long run than the sundered would be claiming.

[Theodric]

It's a bit more complicated than that, really. He wasn't interested in Gaia - he was in love with Lohgrif and Lohgrif was in love with Mitron. They made a promise to come together no matter what and he sought to do just that.

I'd consider it to be framed as more of a tragic love story on the part of Mitron and Lohgrif, especially since Gaia's own parting musings on the matter refer to them as separate beings who she can't help thinking about. It's even implied that somehow, Mitron and Lohgrif always find a way to come together across the ages with the implication being that they will do so again in future reincarnations of themselves.

As with so many other elements of the game's story, it isn't a black or white situation. Especially when it has been clearly established that the Ancients view the Sundered in the same way as we ourselves look upon ants.

[Slatersev]

The Sundering is effectively identity death. Aside from making the afflicted individuals weaker, it forcibly separated the Ancients from their families, friends, neighbours and pets. Not only that but it robbed them of their memories and was pushed upon them without their consent.

Once again, I'll post this as it comes from the writers themselves:



The Sundering is not presented as a positive thing or a stable state and everything that came afterwards is a consequence of the Sundering itself. It's worth noting, the Ascians initially attempted to work with the Sundered and even lived amongst them - only to find them lacking and far removed from their own loved ones who they wished to bring back. Some of the Scions outright admit that they would do the same thing if placed in Emet-Selch's position.

Its not the Ascians plural, its just Emet. None of the others have been stated to try. And we know Elidibus surely didn't.

And even then its never stated he "worked with the Sundered" in the sense of actually explaining the situation to them, just that Emet tried to see if they could be comparable in his biased eyes while still actively working toward his goals even as he grew to love his First Born mortal son.

That's a really, really generous interpretation of "working with them". You can't "work" with someone you fully intend to betray at a later date and call it giving it an honest try.

[Kuroka]

Lohgriff and Mitron are complicated.... After all it was their promise to be together no matter what even after all those eons... Its not like hes some stalker that wants a random girl, its more like wanting your wife back that suffered Amnesia. I Kinda hate how it resolved, i really wished for him to just side with us and Gaia awaken just enough of her memory to feel for him again... having another ascian on our sides would've been nice.

[Lauront]

sounds to me you need to read up on the story hades straight up admitting all the sundering did was split a person into 14 parts ... where hades him self has caused the death of billions of this split up people

Here is what Hades said:



Here is what Elidibus said:



So no, they were not "admitting" that all it did was split a person into 14 parts. Emet-Selch is saying it reduced them across all their attributes; Elidibus is saying the Echo is but a fraction of the powers the ancients possessed in their fullness. We also know that man was much longer lived at the time:



French version:

[16:00] Emet-Selch : Allons... Pensais-tu que nous autres Asciens étions incapables d'avoir des sentiments ?
= “Come now… Did you really think us Ascians were incapable of having these sentiments?”

[16:00] Emet-Selch : Je suis vexé ! Notre palette d'émotions est aussi riche que la vôtre, si ce n'est plus !
= “I am vexed! Our palette of emotions is just as rich as yours, if not more!”

[16:00] Emet-Selch : Rien ne manquait là-bas, dans le véritable monde. Amitié, amour, bonheur... Nous avions tout.
= “Nothing was missing there, in the true world. Friendship, love, happiness… We had everything.”


[16:01] Emet-Selch : Nous coulions de beaux jours, paisibles et joyeux. Nos âmes étaient fortes, nous étions quasiment immortels.
= “We enjoyed beautiful, peaceful and joyful days. Our souls were strong, we were practically immortal.”

[16:01] Emet-Selch : Nous n'avions pas à endurer tous ces conflits nés d'un manque de temps. Des désaccords pouvaient survenir, bien sûr, mais c'était avant tout une grande et belle harmonie qui prédominait.
= “We did not have to endure all these conflicts born of a lack of time. Disagreements could arise of course, but it was above all a great and beautiful harmony that prevailed.”

[16:01] Emet-Selch : Les rues de notre cité rivalisaient de splendeur. Elles étaient surplombées d'une haute tour, elle-même couronnée d'un soleil radieux et caressée par de douces brises.
= “The streets of our city competed in splendor. They were overlooked by a tall tower, itself crowned with a radiant sun and caressed by gentle breezes.”

Characterisation from the short story:

In a time long forgotten, men and gods were one and the same. And upon the star that was their home, men ruled supreme over the corporeal world, within and without which existed an aetherial realm.

Throughout the ages, this realm has been called many names, but in the beginning it was known as the Underworld─the place to which departed souls returned. As water flows to the sea and rises to the sky before raining upon the land once more, the Underworld was a fundamental part of the circle of life. And for this reason, it was regarded at once with familiarity and reverence by men, who, despite their godlike powers, could not claim dominion over it. Wise though they were, they could catch only fleeting glimpses of the realm, channel but a sliver of its power, and do naught to control its ceaseless flow.

The ancients were an exceptionally long lived race. The sundering did not simply "split" them into 14 parts. It follows from this that the dilution reduced the lifespans of the sundered significantly. Hence the claims that the sundering has caused more death than the 14 rejoinings ever will; again, rejoinings which will ultimately result in the full restoration of the soul.

At least to me, everything I learned about Amaurot in Shadowbringers told me that they were a society eventually headed to collapse, regardless of the Final Days. They were extremely arrogant and wielded the powers of creation as if they were gods.

Quite incorrect. For one, they did border on gods anyhow given their innate powers. For another, they were rather responsible in how they wielded these powers, regulating the use of dangerous or subversive concepts and also ensuring that knowledge was shared for the common good. Were there elements in their society which we, who live in more individualistic societies, would find peculiar? Like their policy on robes and masks to avoid engendering feelings of want/disparity? Yes, but it has little to do with being "extremely arrogant". As a society of nigh immortal beings with deep wellsprings of magical power, their method of organising their society seems entirely logical to me. Of course outside Amaurot it may differ somewhat but we have no real way of saying, as this is based on text regarding Amaurot.

Of course they wouldn't view any new life as being worthy to exist. But what gives them the right to make that decision? Their society collapsed due to what seemed like to be its own making and Venat's rebellion even said that Zodiark was a temporary measure and the Final Days would happen again if they stayed the course.

Yes, we do not know the reasons why she believed this. We do not know whether she was correct. We do not know whether the Sundering was even intended. What gives Venat the "right" to sunder the star? Why do the Ascians not have the "right" to correct this, when ultimately any lives lost are in their view are the decayed souls of their own people, thanks to the Sundering? Souls that will be reborn as whole upon the completion of their plan.

We also don't know what it was like outside of Amaurot at the time. We do know that there were farm villagers though. Were they also perfect beings capable of creation magic and gifted with long lives? We also know there was death, Emet-Selch's Tales from the Shadows describes the Underworld and that all souls come back to it. I'm not sure that the old days were as "perfect" as the Amaurotians think it was. Azem certainly didn't think so if they refused the Convocation's help repeatedly and spent all of their time outside the city.

It scarcely matters. If beings besides the ancients resided outside in other settlements, even if they lacked similar powers/longevity, they too would be divided 14 times over and suffer dilution.

Your conclusion regarding Azem doesn't follow either. The Convocation as a whole was tasked with governing the entire star. If Azem were to call upon them every time there was an issue, that Azem or their companions could resolve themselves, they would be wasting their time.

Bit late, but I don't think characters like Tiamat or Middy are so powerful because there Unsundered, I think it's just because there Dragons and Dragons are naturally freakishly powerful.

No one is saying they are unsundered in the sense that they are ancients. They are unsundered in the sense that their world was not shattered by the Sundering.

Were giving no indication that Mortal's from the Shards are inherently weaker then Mortals from the Source. And we have been given no indication that "Immortal boundless wells of Aether" is the natural state of all Sapients from other worlds.

A red herring. No one is saying that, nor is whatever happens in other worlds from other FFs relevant to XIV's own unique cosmology.

Mortals from other shards do not differ from those on the Source to the degree an unsundered Ascian/ancient differs to a sundered one, but it is false to say there is no inherent difference; see here:

Beq Lugg
Any other time, and I would have dismissed your stories as balderdash and flummery. But upon closer inspection, 'tis plain their souls are far denser than is normal. And that they do not possess true bodies.
Save you. Your body is your own.

And your soul is the densest of them all.

We do not know why they're not yet manifesting slowly a closer proximity to the ancients but nonetheless the difference between sundered and full unsundered is definitely there. Another source:

4. Emet-Selch remarks that we are of the Source, "seven times rejoined". Is he talking about our soul, or only the world? If our soul has been rejoined, does that mean everyone on the Source has been rejoined to another soul-fragment each Calamity, or are we (and perhaps other specific characters) special in some way?
Oda: Each time there is a rejoining, any living things have the souls rejoined. This is true for everyone equally. The souls get more dense, and potentially more powerful.

Yoshi: The Rejoining isn't just for the characters, but for the whole world. Of course, this does apply to yourself, as well.

Given the attempt to directly strip her of her memories so as to make her fall in love with him again, yeah parallels with sexual violence are applicable.

He is trying to restore her ancient persona, i.e. the one corresponding to her full shard. His soul mate. I therefore think such a parallel misses the mark entirely.

Again, the Ascians are cruel to each other. Fandaniel quite obviously doesn't want to save the world: he wants to destroy it. (At least so he says, and the only way he can be redeemed is by the story going "actually he's lying because Reasons".) Emet-Selch wants to rejoin the worlds to restore the lost Amaurotines via further sacrifice, and in doing so he doesn't even bother to check up on what happened to Mitron. Elidibus doesn't even remember why he's doing what he does, and he's the nicest Ascian we've met apart from Gaia. Lahabrea keeps ranting about the One True God, so he's clearly out of it, to the point where when his True Death is confirmed, Emet-Selch went "lol he was dumb". I don't even know what Nabriales was trying to do other than gloat at us for whatever reason.

And Mitron attempts to forcibly keep Loghrif by his side, despite her express denial as Gaia, so he's definitely evil, in the "sexual harassment lawsuit" kind of way.

None of this is necessary to cause the rejoinings. The Ascians we've met (again, other than Gaia/Loghrif) were cruel for the sake of being petty jerks.

So yes, I believe the Ascians are evil, because they don't even treat each other as equals and respected colleagues.

I'm not going to argue that their relationship to each other was perfect but...

1) Elidibus tried to convince Fandaniel out of his position. Fandaniel isn't exactly sane (or is at least working to a very opaque agenda), anyhow, or on board with the broader Ascian agenda, and has a deeper backstory. In spite of his spurning of the ancient world, he invokes a term that appears to be distinctly ancient; the Telophoroi.

2) Emet-Selch's main concern is indeed the restoration of the ancient world. The sundered Ascians are in their view replaceable but at the same time, even if Mitron was to be rejoined with the star, he would become one with his Source shard. And it is the Source shard which is their ultimate goal to restore to its full self as that will then allow them to restore the full ancient. Mitron assumed Emet-Selch knew he was there but did not wish to disrupt the aetheric balance the world had settled on. We don't know if Emet-Selch actually knew he was there inside a sin eater. And even if he did, for the aforementioned reasons, it doesn't matter that greatly. Emet-Selch possessed the keenest soul sight of them all, and that soul sight would permit him to see the degraded state of the soul.

3) Elidibus does not remember out of choice, because he considers that all he needs is devotion to his duty. Emet-Selch does not agree with him but also does not force him to do it. This also helps Elidibus be unrelenting in fulfilling their goal. Hades sets up a plan to relieve him of this burden. It is clear from the short story that it was painful to him to see the state of both Elidibus and Lahabrea.

4) Lahabrea's identity was worn down from body hopping.

All of this is down to how long they have been at this, and the toll it is taking on them - a task they deem necessary to correct the sundering and restore the star, and their people. They are also working with shards that are not the fully restored versions of the people they wish to restore. All of this the result of what the sundering did to their world.

I see this less as "evil" and more as the result of the circumstances they're working under. They plainly do not view sundered souls as equivalent, even if they can awaken the ancient persona in them, and they are objectively much weaker than an unsundered soul - again, Lahabrea had to severely weaken himself to get to the point he got.

To me they are the tragic heroes of a fallen civilisation. Not "evil".

Lohgriff and Mitron are complicated.... After all it was their promise to be together no matter what even after all those eons... Its not like hes some stalker that wants a random girl, its more like wanting your wife back that suffered Amnesia. I Kinda hate how it resolved, i really wished for him to just side with us and Gaia awaken just enough of her memory to feel for him again... having another ascian on our sides would've been nice.

I'm hoping we see that with 6.0.

[Lord_Umbra]

Given the attempt to directly strip her of her memories so as to make her fall in love with him again, yeah parallels with sexual violence are applicable.



A position they quickly reject as such rejoinings would results in millions of innocents dying, to which Emet responds by claiming they were not human ergo he wouldn’t be murdering them.

We can recognize the position the Unsundered were in without ignoring the very real ways they tried to justify genocide.

Well Ryne & WoL are no different to Mitron, we're also forcing Gaia to be the Gaia we know & the entire Eden plot is Ryne forcing herself on Gaia who wants nothing to do with her for like 70% of Eden story. Mitron is more a sad soul who just wanted his lover back. Also he was & wasn't taking her memories his goal was remove memories of us & give her back her original memories, basically we liked Amnesiac Gaia & wanted to keep her instead of given her memories back.

I'd say Mitron wasn't perfect but no one was perfect in how either side dealt with Gaia in Eden.

[Kuroka]

Besides i wanna see how "sane" any of us would be after seeing his beloved die, being trapped 100 years and then see her reborn as a mere shadow of herself.... further, If im not wrong he even said he wished he would've died with her...


Also, ultimately they most the times only gave us a gun, it was always us mortals who pulled the trigger... I get why thats only further cementing their view of us as being worthless...

[Alleo]

So yes, I believe the Ascians are evil, because they don't even treat each other as equals and respected colleagues.

I felt a bit bad for Mitron even if he was also kinda creepy. We basically learned that the sundered Ascians just get their old memories back and seeing how he tried to force it with Gaia who knows how many of the sundered even truly wanted it? They after all were reborn into the worlds and may have gotten family and friends. And suddenly they are overrun by these old memories from people that they are no longer.

And then you have Mitron who then fought for then and after he was turned into Eden Emet and the other unsundered left him there...how very cruel...but I guess even if you are with them, as long as you are sundered you are still not worth much. So even if I find Emet and Elidibus interesting and can understand their views I was kinda a bit disgusted how they threated the others.

About the question of the thread itself: Honestly I dont know. He will probably behave the way he was created for. The question will remain on how they thought of him...maybe it will also depend if old primals like Zodiark and Hydaelny can have a bit of their own agenda.