Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Katie_Kitty]

Um, you realize that Hydaelyn herself caused genocide with the sundering correct? The lives lost due to age,war and illness, aka things that didn’t exist in the ancient world that were born due to the sundering? The devs themselves state there is no good or bad lmao. Idk how you keep trying to refute that.

And you completely fail to realize that it was sundering or the end of the world. Or maybe you're intentionally being disingenuous by ignoring it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And you completely fail to realize that it was sundering or the end of the world. Or maybe you're intentionally being disingenuous by ignoring it.

Except you’re literally pulling that out of nowhere. There’s no proof Zodiark wasn’t the solution. You’re basing it off of a very bias perspective and someone with very little knowledge on the overall scheme of creation. Look lets just agree to disagree. I'm invested in discussing the story rather than headcanon-y moral hang-ups

[Theodric]

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered. Frankly, it is probably a red herring, as I don’t think tempering matters as much as some people think when it comes to motivation (depending on the Primal), but there is very little to suggest she couldn’t temper us in some form if she wanted to. Just claims that because it doesn’t match what happens to the followers of X primal under tempering, it can’t be the case. Not all too convincing, especially after 5.4 and 5.5.



While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation. The text supporting that is here:







I think it is safe to say that Theodric is on solid grounds to think such a concept, being researched in Akadaemia Anyder in the Words of Lahabrea and then potentially stored in Anamnesis Anyder (under the Bureau of the Architect’s oversight) would not be something that is common knowledge, particularly given its complexity and aetheric requirements. Supported by the below:



To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before – see here:





We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:



The world was dying and the extent of this is shown in the Amaurot instance. Said “abomination” delivered a restoration of the world, which even Venat’s group does not deny, even though they think that the order could not endure.
As an aside – why is it alright for another “abomination” to come out of the blue and shatter the world and all inside it, degrading their souls? I don’t have an answer as yet as to why they did it. I am sure there’s reasons as to why they thought it had to happen, and that they possibly didn’t understand how the power of enervation functioned in practice, but I will note the narrative I always see from certain quarters is quick to cast Zodiark as some “abomination” but never his counterpart. She is magically exempt from all the laws governing other primals, even sophisticated ones like Zodiark. Though I prefer to take an open-minded approach, in the sense that the writers can compose the story in any manner they please and we can but guess at where they’re going with it, I do find this rather amusing.

Currently we have a gap in understanding as to why her faction thought Zodiark was not a permanent solution, but Hythlodaeus mentions that her summoners were driven from a belief that the new life (only referred to as “freshly minted souls” in Ere our Curtain falls; FR version doesn't clarify it much – we don’t know much else about this “new life”) should inherit the world. Could it be because this new life lacked the same facility for creation magicks? A belief that the ancients had reached a stagnation point? A fear that power as great as Zodiark’s could result in trouble down the line? Something else? As it stands, the things they do not mention are the cause of the Final Days (elusive to all) or tempering. As a reminder of something, the sequence of events seems to be thus:

1. There is general disagreement amongst the populace about how to proceed in regards to restoration of the sacrificed ancients. Maybe because of their maturation cycles, given that they were virtually immortal, maybe because the new souls differed materially – e.g. less/not capable of using Creation magicks. No firm proof either way.
2. This also split the Convocation – see here from the French version:


English for comparison:



This self-same person is who was at Zodiark’s foundation, and became Zodiark’s heart – a Primal imbued with the desire of salvation.

3. Elidibus emerges out of Zodiark. Sentiments and rationale reproduced below:



4. By the time Venat’s group summon him, they say very few support their side. We don’t know why. This is a change in the situation. I suspect what happened is Elidibus’s emergence from Zodiark served as a proof of concept for what many ancients had wanted to be done. The Convocation then felt it had a sufficient basis to enact this as its decision.





5. Azem did not respond to the repeated overtures of Venat’s group. We do not know why, but cannot rule out the possibility that they too did not consider her solution a particularly good one.

So based on this, we can conclude it was not just the Convocation pushing for this plan.

Although, as I said, the writers can do what they wish, I’d find it awfully strange if at this point they still try reduce Zodiark to some comic book baddy, or some tyrant who hungered for aether. Especially when we don’t know how they were powered (although here is a suggestion.) Perhaps something afflicted him, but even so I find the reaction of sundering the entire world disproportionate – but granted, possibly not intended. In my estimation, neither party in the conflict was wholly right, and they were both entrenched in their position, and yet neither Primal is evil nor unconditionally bad. I am hoping that, with Fandaniel's advent and potential backstory, that we will learn of a third party instigating the whole affair for its own benefit.

An excellent post and a well sourced one at that. I'm definitely bookmarking it for future reference!

[_Koneko_]

honestly it seems to me that they was meddling with powers beyond their understanding and possibly went to far and broke something or it could be that the light and dark has always existed and Zodiark masterminded his own summoning

you could argue that by the time the crystal mother was about to be summoned they had very little supporters because everyone else was tempered by zodiark

[Katie_Kitty]

Except you’re literally pulling that out of nowhere. There’s no proof Zodiark wasn’t the solution. You’re basing it off of a very bias perspective and someone with very little knowledge on the overall scheme of creation. Look lets just agree to disagree. I'm invested in discussing the story rather than headcanon-y moral hang-ups

No, I'm basing it off everything we learned in Shadowbringers, words straight from the horse's mouth. The ancients heard a scary sound, and it caused them to destroy themselves with creation magic. That's what happened. Personally, I'm of the belief that the ancients were a flawed race with more magical power than they were mentally prepared to handle. The end was inevitable and would have happened no matter what. That's probably why venat and her gang decided to go with a sundering route.

[Anvaire]

They are living beings, whether or not their souls used to be something else doesn't magically mean they didn't flourish. Life flourished for a long time in the sundered world but now you're going to ignore that just because some ascian who you've become a fanboy of has a sob story to make you feel bad?

No thanks. Emet is a genocidal psychopath. Ascians are genocidal psychopaths and villains who needed to be stopped. Hydaelyn's world has not faced an end of days for many many thousands of years, and even did not have calamities without direct involvement by Ascians who cause them. There's no reason to see hydaelyn as anything but good.

Your argument seems to be based on people being zodiark's fan boys. I would say the reverse is true of you only with Hydaelyn instead.

Returning to the debate though, I think there is a distinction to be made between what the ascians did and wanted, and what Zodiark did and wanted. From what we can tell Zodiark stopped the end days and the plan that the ascians concocted to sacrifice the lives of the star to restore the souls lost was never accomplished perhaps due to Hydeayns interference.

But the question remains, why was only so few opposed to Zodiark or fearful of him?

As others mentioned, Azem wasnt opposed to creation itself, but seemd to not agree with the creation of Zodiark or Hydealyn. The question is why?

I still think that Zodiark himself should be seen as separate from his summoners desires and not seen as inherantly evil though. He accomplished the task that he was created for, he stopped the final days and restored the planet at a terrible cost, but one that was aggreeable to those who sacrificed themselves to achieve it. Emet Selch told us that directly and thinking on it logically. Given the disposition of Amaurotians we have seen, it seems that they would be open to such an occurance especially as they were already sacrificing themselves to drive creations like Quetzacotl, in that case, the summoner thought they were proctecting the building.

I think its easy to see the scrifice as wholly evil. But given the choice was between that and extinction... you can kind of see why they would do it and also why those who survived might want to do anything to see those lives restored. Either way i think its thoroughly in the gray area.

Id say this though, we do not know enough yet to detirmine whether hydealyn being summoned was actually required. There is something odd about how Venar talks about it. Her detirmination to be the core, and the fact that so few agreed with them. In a democracy it is akin to the least voted party taking power, despite the opponants having a clear majority.

Hydealyns actions in sundering the star technically caused more death than Zodiark as while the scrifice would have been of some of the lives, Hydealyn's sundering actually sacrificed far more lives in order to split the souls into fragments to populate the world. We do not know if this genocide actually resulted in the extinction of the original races and the ones existing now are due to evolution,or if some few survived.

I think that the former is true given that all was sundered. Though we have to consider whether the act of sundering actualy caused the death of those sundered, it is implied to be the case.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

I do think that trying to be so binary about Zodiark and Hydaelyn is a fool’s game since they are written to not be viewed that way. Let's take a step back and understand the ancient point of view towards the final day by taking a look at the side quest “Debate and Discourse”

Loquacious Amaurotine:
“As to the matter of what subject we shall debate today, I propose the recent calamity which has befallen our friends across the pond. What say you?”

“The singular point of contention is, of course, whether or not Amaurot should intervene on their behalf.”

“I believe we should. The scale of the disaster which threatens that distant metropolis is of a scale heretofore unseen, and so equally considerable resources must be committed to counteracting its effects.”

At this point we can infer three things.
-Amaurot is NOT the only civilization in the unsundered world
-They are one of if not the most powerful beings on the planet
-This calamity which we figure out is the beginning of the Final Days has never been seen up to this point in history

This is the viewpoint from someone who agrees with interventions. The counter point is-

Amaurotine Firebrand:

“I disagree. The scale concerns me less than the nature of the proposition itself. Who are we to unilaterally intervene in the affairs of those half a world away? Are we to be the saviors of one and all? Such arrogance may well lead to our own downfall.”

Though Amaurot has God like powers this guy believes to not intervene. Not out of a holier than thou attitude towards others but due to the idea of sovereignty.

It’s kind of the same idea of why Superman won’t kill. If they cross that moral line how easy does it become to blur everything else they set upon themselves. If Amaurot decides to play world police now how is that going to shape the world in the future?


No one likes being told what to do so having demi-gods interfering in your daily life telling you what is and isn’t correct doesn’t sound rad

At this point the WoL can respond in two ways. By dropping Louisoix’s favorite quote.

“To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom─it is indolence.”

Or instead with the more jaded answer of-

“We cannot save everyone. Sometimes, it is all we can do to save ourselves.”

Picking either option leads to the Loquacious Amaurotine citing that attempting to save these people could be a perfect opportunity to test their new creations as “What benefits Amaurot benefits all creation,”

And the Amaurotine Firebrand retorts with

“How readily you cede the moral high ground! Was not our young friend's point that we have an ethical obligation to aid those in need? Yet not only do you instead elect to focus on the benefit to Amaurot alone, but you also deprive our distant neighbors of the agency to determine their own fate!”

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

continuing my post above

At this point you're probably wondering “Why did this dweeb make such a long post for stuff we already know” Reason being I think this is one of THE MOST IMPORTANT side quests in the game because it allows you to take a peek at the mentality of the ancients

To say that they were just some snobs in an ivory tower or that they were loveable stewards of the planets misses half the picture. The emergence of the sound and the Ancients manifesting their nightmares was the first real tragedy the ancient world faced and they dropped the ball completely. But, we gotta understand WHY amaurot was already in overtime in the first place.

TL;DR it's impossible to boil down the ancients or their creations to X or Y because parties from both sides believe two very different ideas of what should be done.

[KizuyaKatogami]

At this point you're probably wondering “Why did this dweeb make such a long post for stuff we already know” Reason being I think this is one of THE MOST IMPORTANT side quests in the game because it allows you to take a peek at the mentality of the ancients

To say that they were just some snobs in an ivory tower or that they were loveable stewards of the planets misses half the picture. The emergence of the sound and the Ancients manifesting their nightmares was the first real tragedy the ancient world faced and they dropped the ball completely. But, we gotta understand WHY amaurot was already in overtime in the first place.

TL;DR it's impossible to boil down the ancients or their creations to X or Y because parties from both sides believe two very different ideas of what should be done.

Have to say i agree with 99% of your points, they’re really thought out and worded. The only thing i slightly disagree with is them “dropping the ball.” I feel the situation wasn’t something that could really be planned properly for. We’re told the crisis escalated very rapidly and they were trying to research the phenomenon as best they could it seems based on the lore entries. If it was indeed some kind of alien-like entity or even just something completely unknown to them i don’t think it’s their fault for not having planned for that. Other than that very great posts

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Have to say i agree with 99% of your points, they’re really thought out and worded. The only thing i slightly disagree with is them “dropping the ball.” I feel the situation wasn’t something that could really be planned properly for. We’re told the crisis escalated very rapidly and they were trying to research the phenomenon as best they could it seems based on the lore entries. If it was indeed some kind of alien-like entity or even just something completely unknown to them i don’t think it’s their fault for not having planned for that. Other than that very great posts

yeah thats something I probably should have phrased better but I liked the "overtime" analogy lol. but you are 100% correct because as far as we know Zodiark wasn't the first choice "wish machine" will fix everything type deal. Elidibus sacrificing himself was pretty much after they were all at wits end, Amaurot the dungeon does an excellent job at illustrating the devestation!