Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[EaraGrace]

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered.

I never said it was impossible, just that Hydaelyn tempering Ardbert makes no sense and does not fit on either a contextual or metatextual level. His reactions, his actions, his responses, none of them fit any example of tempering that we’ve seen. And in the event he was tempered I fail to see why his companions, who were not interacted with by Minfilia directly, would be the ones arguing for Hydaelyns wants in that moment.

While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation.

An important point! However, I argue from our experience in Anyder that Venat holds no little amount of sway. While not a member of the Convocation she was able to convince a group to dissent and form an opposition faction, an unheard of occurrence. Exactly what place in the Ancients society she was in is unclear, but given her influence and her strength (as is remarked on in the archive), she may be up there in chain of command.

And even still, there’s one small fact we seem to be overlooking. The base of operations for the Light faction is deep in an actual archive of concepts. A repository for the Akadaemia.

URIANGER: That this facility shared intimate ties with the Akadaemia Anyder may readily be discerned from the common element in their names. Based on mine observations, 'tis like that the forms housed here were conveyed unto the Akadaemia only when required, and thence returned for safekeeping.

It seems logical that any who would have access to such a facility would either possess the knowledge of summoning itself, or the the means to obtain it. They’re sitting where such things are stored after all!

To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before

Enervation was indeed unique, yet doesn’t that just indicate that it’s likely the faction of Light derived it themselves?

We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:

Let’s be careful not to presume. As you point out later the wording is that the overtures were unanswered, not necessarily refused. Azems role seems to be the wildcard, and without clear evidence of what they were doing I would be skeptical of anyone claiming they chose a specific side, Light or Dark.

[Lauront]

We can argue until the cows come home about whether Ardbert is tempered or not. He himself seemed undecided on the matter. Like I said, I don't consider it to be a particularly relevant point, irrespective of how or why it's manifesting, because of how fluid the concept is and the fact that it doesn't mean the same as mind control, so it doesn't add all that much one way or another for the time being. Nonetheless, the Word of the Mother is very clear in how she phrases it what the expectations upon him are. Whether he is tempered "makes sense" or not will depend on the shape and form of it.

As for Venat and her role, I agree on that point, they do hold her in high esteem and it is entirely possible she was a high ranking bureaucrat herself and acquired the concept in that manner.

Regarding the concept's origin, I bring that up to point out that it could be a possible explanation as to why it may have resulted in the entire world being sundered in spite of their wishes.

As for Azem, that is my point.

[EaraGrace]

I think its easy to see the scrifice as wholly evil. But given the choice was between that and extinction... you can kind of see why they would do it and also why those who survived might want to do anything to see those lives restored. Either way i think its thoroughly in the gray area.

The moral question isn’t over the willing sacrifices however, but the plan to replace those sacrificed with the life that was not yet born. It’s in that plan we see Venat and her followers dissent.

Id say this though, we do not know enough yet to detirmine whether hydealyn being summoned was actually required. There is something odd about how Venar talks about it. Her detirmination to be the core, and the fact that so few agreed with them. In a democracy it is akin to the least voted party taking power, despite the opponants having a clear majority.

I’m extremely hesitant to make any sort of observation on the morality of these decisions based on how many they had agree. Remember, after Zodiarks summoning the question was over whether they would be continuing with the plan to regain their friends souls. It’s entirely unsurprising that many would side with that effort.

I think that the former is true given that all was sundered. Though we have to consider whether the act of sundering actualy caused the death of those sundered, it is implied to be the case.

Emet-Selchs’ lecture in the solar I believe makes it clear that the act of sundering does not, itself, cause death.





The soul and its qualities are split, but both are still alive.

[Theodric]

I'd consider the Sundering to be the equivalent of death given that those struck by it are no longer who they once where in either mind or body. It's a technicality, really - I doubt many here would be pleased to see themselves ripped away from their friends, family and pets whilst also being made physically weaker and with little but fragmented memories of what once was.

A key point will be whether it was an intentional act or an accident. So far, we know that Hydaelyn was brought forth to supposedly keep Zodiark's power in check. Yet that was done in defiance of what the majority of the Ancients desired.

Ultimately, the Sundering itself is not framed as a good thing by the writers themselves - but it is an event that happened and one that cannot be reversed easily.

As for the morality side of things, Yoshi-P had this to say:

Talking of the story, what was your personal favourite while going through the expansion?

Yoshida - That’s a tough question, being in the development team, I’m involved with lots of adjustment and tweaking during creations, so I see all the cut-scenes and while in development I give feedback on if a cut-scene should be bringing up the tension in certain parts. I had to play Shadowbringers four times, so it’s hard to have one favourite part.

If I needed to pick one, there is a scene after you complete a dungeon in a cave where you see the murals that is the dream that the ancients saw which is about the war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Emet-Selch takes the whole party to the cave and talks about the war and Y’sthola, and other NPCs were surprised by his revelation about what had happened. This struck really hard to me.

This scene is really underlining the story of Shadowbringers. Everyone is in a different position, the view of winners will be different to those that have lost, and the truth that they may tell will also be different. There is not really any point in arguing who is right or wrong but what is really important is to understand that there are so many views, and we need to accept it; how can we move forward by us understanding each other.

That was more just for Shadowbringers, but it’s also a common theme through Eorzea and FFXIV. What Emet-Selch was expressing is his view that ‘this is my opinion not requiring approval from anyone because this is what I believe’. He doesn’t even reject what Haydelin is saying, he just accepts it. What he expressed in that scene was ‘how great ancients are and the deep understanding they have with people who have different opinions to themselves.

Source: https://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/gam...shida-21385561

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Was rewatching some cutscenes and just thought everyone should remember this line as it might be important in the Future

Venat:
"If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might serve as her heart"

As we know primals and creations are effected by the thoughts on has while summoning them. An example of the former; Ga bu's manifestation of Titan being very childlike and the Latter; Emet-Selch's recreation of Hythlodeus being more "sophisticated" as his mind wandered during his creation of Amaurot.

Elidibus being picked as the heart of Zodiark for his child like innocence and sense of morality also implies that "core" of the ancient "Primals" play a large factor in how they act.
(I put quotations around primal as Emet says primals after a fashion meaning that they are similar but not identical to what we know today)

Hydaelyn had a completely unique skill as mentioned above of "enervation" meaning that she was different to Zodiark in some ways

With that information we have two very important questions that must be answered:
-Is the heart of Zodiark and Hydaelyn conscious of what they are doing while in the drivers seat? (Will become important if the sundering is revealed to be intentional cause then we're able to place blame upon Venat since they knew what they were doing. Bonus! Venat willingly drop kicked a child and that's really funny)

-Why did Venat deny her other colleagues when they wanted to become the heart of Hydaelyn? Why did it HAVE to be Venat? What did she have that they didn't?

If the glowing figure/woman on the Endwalker art is indeed Venat it would give us much needed insight because even though Hydaelyn did help us out through the story she has also hasn't kept it 100 with the WoL either and whether you are team Zodiark, Team Hydaelyn, or waiting for more answers you have to concede Emet did a better job laying out his case than Hydaelyn has bothered to.

EDIT: Forgot to mention how did Venat's group get the blue prints to make something highly specialized to stop Zodiark? was one of them apart of the bureau of architects? Did they just reverse engineer hydaelyn from analyzing Zodiark? not sure if it's stated anywhere

[RyuDragnier]

-Why did Venat deny her other colleagues when they wanted to become the heart of Hydaelyn? Why did it HAVE to be Venat? What did she have that they didn't?

This is the big thing I'm wondering, just exactly who Venat is. Assume the abilities of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are linked to their hearts. Zodiark possesses powerful creation magick, much like Elidibus who was his heart. If the dividing power of Hydaelyn came from Venat...perhaps Venat had the powers to separate things? Since Hades mentioned that it was unheard of, it was likely not a power that came from Amaurot, they'd know of how it would work. The only things I can think of is either it being knowledge elsewhere in the world hidden even from the Amaurotines...or it's a power nobody on the Star could have, meaning it and Venat came from another Star.

[_Koneko_]

lets be fair if the power of the primal comes from its summoners if the mother crystal did not have dividing she would have lost she simply did not have enough followers it was most likely 100 % on purpose that the world was sundered as it was the only way to contain zodiark if zodiark is the will of the star like emet says then dividing the star would divide zodiark and thus remove his power by shattering it into 14 fragments

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

Both very reasonable and compelling questions! The timeline of events as we know are (correct me if I'm wrong)

-Everything is hunky dory in Amaurot and the Ancient world as a whole
-Someone hears a "keening" from the earth and the rest of the world starts experiencing a calamity
-Amaurot researches and discussed what to do about this as they are sitting on their hands the sound arrives
-Amaurot dungeon takes place shows us the devastation that occured
-The convocation as a last resort plans to summon Zodiark and Azem disagreeing with it leaves
-Half of Amaurotine life is sacrificed to bring Zodiark into existence and stop the final days
-Another half is then sacrificed to restore the capacity to host life

We know how the story goes from there.

Seeing as Zodiark's tempered sometimes actively go against the will you would assume he would want; the great rejoining. Looking at you Mitron! Compressing all of time and space to spend time with your girlfriend isn't restoring the ancient world >:^(. Maybe the convocation was fine with returning to stewards of the star after they got their gang back, if said homies would be whole is another question I don't have an answer to.

I could discuss the logistics of Zodiark/Hydaelyn tempering all day, it's super interesting! I've heard things from

"Maybe Hydaelyn tempers all the Warriors of Light so they don't get claimed by Zodiark and "Hear, Feel, Think" are her first commandments to restore their own will to them?" to

"Emet's words in Qitana Revel "Learn, look, and remember" being what Zodiark tells the Asican's to restore their memories of the ancient world"

[Anvaire]

lets be fair if the power of the primal comes from its summoners if the mother crystal did not have dividing she would have lost she simply did not have enough followers it was most likely 100 % on purpose that the world was sundered as it was the only way to contain zodiark if zodiark is the will of the star like emet says then dividing the star would divide zodiark and thus remove his power by shattering it into 14 fragments

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

I dont think that the Amaurtean creations needed an endless supply of Aether to continue to exist. The constructs like Zodiark and Hydealyn were created in a way that makes them permement and stable. Zodiark did need the energy to restore the original souls because he would need to plug the gap in power. I think this is why Emet say's they are primals after a fashion. It is implied that much of the modern monsters and creatures were originally constructs created by the Amaurteans that have existed past their ultimate fall. By this reckoning, it would mean that these too would fundementally be a primal.

I think there is a difference between primal summoning and the creation magic used by the amauroteans and i think the difference comes down to the amount of natural aether available and also how it is achieved. The Amauroteans seened to have a detailed plan of the construct meaning its shape and existence was set, while primals are loosely based on desire and belief which results in the fundamental shift in mentality with each subsequent summoning. Which becomes a strange self fulfilling cycle. The summoner calls forth the primal > the primal tempers> the tempered continue to summon > the summon retempers the only exception to this cycle seems to deities like Shiva, Thorden and Ramuh each of whom have their own characteristics. Shiva is a particulaly interesting incarnation as it means the primal would essentially temper herself with her own will if that is what is happening except that the echo would prevent that. Thorden also seemed himself after his defeat. Either way its an interesting concept.

[MistakeNot]

With Endwalker approaching I have been thinking a lot about Hydealyn and Zodiark. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Hydealyn isnt as benevolant as she first appears. Which got me thinking about Zodiark and I realised that aside from what we have been told, weve seen no actual evidence that Zodiark is "Evil" if anything, what we have seen in 5.3 would suggest that he isnt.

Is an hurricane evil? Is an earthquake evil? No, but they certainly can be dangerous and kill many.
Same with the primals - including Hydaelyn and Zodiark. They don't really have free will, which means they can't make moral choices as such and therefore can't be considered "good" or "evil" in the conventional sense.
They are more like forces of nature, Dangerous, but can be useful if your goals happen to align with theirs.