Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[YianKutku]

The thing is , Lahabrea also calls her a parasite.

Lahabrea also called Zodiark the One True God, and Ultima as "a sliver of Zodiark's power", when we know the former is false and the latter is so complicated that it's effectively false.

[_Koneko_]

I dont think that the Amaurtean creations needed an endless supply of Aether to continue to exist. The constructs like Zodiark and Hydealyn were created in a way that makes them permement and stable. Zodiark did need the energy to restore the original souls because he would need to plug the gap in power. I think this is why Emet say's they are primals after a fashion. It is implied that much of the modern monsters and creatures were originally constructs created by the Amaurteans that have existed past their ultimate fall. By this reckoning, it would mean that these too would fundementally be a primal.

I think there is a difference between primal summoning and the creation magic used by the amauroteans and i think the difference comes down to the amount of natural aether available and also how it is achieved. The Amauroteans seened to have a detailed plan of the construct meaning its shape and existence was set, while primals are loosely based on desire and belief which results in the fundamental shift in mentality with each subsequent summoning. Which becomes a strange self fulfilling cycle. The summoner calls forth the primal > the primal tempers> the tempered continue to summon > the summon retempers the only exception to this cycle seems to deities like Shiva, Thorden and Ramuh each of whom have their own characteristics. Shiva is a particulaly interesting incarnation as it means the primal would essentially temper herself with her own will if that is what is happening except that the echo would prevent that. Thorden also seemed himself after his defeat. Either way its an interesting concept.

nothing suggest that they do not operate as traditional primals including the active tempering by that logic they would need aether to maintain their existence a existence that would eventually bleed the land dry when you run out of ancients with their huge mana capacity to sacrifice hades by his own admittance is tempered sure he never lied to us but the information provided by an ascian is always sus to me people have claimed Hydaelyn lied to us before but that would only be true if Hydaelyn and zodiark did not pre exist before they was summoned i believe all the primal forces are in fact pre existing forces before they was summoned as primals I believe ramuh even makes mention that he existed before he was summoned by the sylphs but i could be wrong

if we take Hydaelyn at her word that he grew power hungry then he may have in fact master minded his own summoning and is a bad guy but if Hydaelyn and zodiark are two parts of a pair what caused the inbalance was it the rampant abuse of the ancient's creation magic assuming Hydaelyn was being truthful what would cause zodiark to become unbalanced

[Anvaire]

Is an hurricane evil? Is an earthquake evil? No, but they certainly can be dangerous and kill many.
Same with the primals - including Hydaelyn and Zodiark. They don't really have free will, which means they can't make moral choices as such and therefore can't be considered "good" or "evil" in the conventional sense.
They are more like forces of nature, Dangerous, but can be useful if your goals happen to align with theirs.

You say this and quite often people draw a line that Hydealyn = Good and Zodiark = evil. For me i think its neither and that the story will be nuanced and complicated. I do think though, there has been a lot of time spent narratively speaking to paint Zodiark as an evil entity that must be stopped, or an entity that is bad if he wakes up. It will be interesting to see things from his perspective which is what i hope we see eventually.

There are certainly things about Hydealyn that i find are a bit sketchy and grey and the most prominent is where she aetherically ate minfilia because she was too weak, yet was sat in the middle of the aetherial sea. So for me either our understanding of how aether works is wrong, or there is something missing there. Of course it could be that she refused to absorb the aether for reasons, but if that is the case she chose to sacrifice minfilia instead, which opens up an even bigger can of worms to consider.

[YianKutku]

Honestly my view is that whether Zodiark is good or evil is, in the end, almost entirely irrelevant. The bit that matters is that his (self-proclaimed) representatives, the Ascians, are definitely evil.

By which I mean how every Ascian we've met has been pointlessly cruel, including to their own. The first time we see any Ascian care about another is in the Eden raids, with Mitron and Loghrif, and at that point it was already twisted into a creepy possessive thing. Even Elidibus was concerned more with his (imperfect) memories of the Convocation, not what the Ascians had actually become.

And when the Unsundered all perished and the Sundered were free to do their own thing, one of them went creepy-possessive, and another went "let's destroy the world".

So if Zodiark wants to be seen as not-evil, he'd need to fire all the Ascians and get better employees.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Honestly my view is that whether Zodiark is good or evil is, in the end, almost entirely irrelevant. The bit that matters is that his (self-proclaimed) representatives, the Ascians, are definitely evil.

By which I mean how every Ascian we've met has been pointlessly cruel, including to their own. The first time we see any Ascian care about another is in the Eden raids, with Mitron and Loghrif, and at that point it was already twisted into a creepy possessive thing. Even Elidibus was concerned more with his (imperfect) memories of the Convocation, not what the Ascians had actually become.

And when the Unsundered all perished and the Sundered were free to do their own thing, one of them went creepy-possessive, and another went "let's destroy the world".

So if Zodiark wants to be seen as not-evil, he'd need to fire all the Ascians and get better employees.

Except again, it’s perspective. I wouldn’t see them as evil so much as trying to restore their world and loved ones back to how they were. Again, if we want to get technical, the rejoinings would save more lives than just keeping the world sundered. I’m so shocked honestly that people still continue to call them villains or zodiark is evil or they’re evil when the devs themselves said there is no good or there is no evil. Yoshi P specifically wanted this to be a story that isn’t black and white.

[_Koneko_]

uhm because they are evil and villains by the D&D scale both zodiark and the ascians would fall into chaotic evil

The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whim. The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order rends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.

The chaotic evil also likes to corrupt the innocent and virtuous. People are play-things to the chaotic evil, to be used and manipulated for their own personal pleasure. A chaotic evil doesn't necessarily go after individuals just because they stand in the way of their success, they will harm or destroy people for the sheer pleasure of it.


how many people have the ascians / paragons corrupted for their own ends face it they are evil

hades alone has most likely killed billions i'm glad we ended this monster

[KizuyaKatogami]

uhm because they are evil and villains by the D&D scale both zodiark and the ascians would fall into chaotic evil

The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whim. The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order rends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.

The chaotic evil also likes to corrupt the innocent and virtuous. People are play-things to the chaotic evil, to be used and manipulated for their own personal pleasure. A chaotic evil doesn't necessarily go after individuals just because they stand in the way of their success, they will harm or destroy people for the sheer pleasure of it.


how many people have the ascians / paragons corrupted for their own ends face it they are evil

hades alone has most likely killed billions i'm glad we ended this monster

They aren’t evil in my eyes. The devs have confirmed it. We can argue the logistics all day over who murdered more, ascians or hydaelyn. In the end, she would have murdered more because of rendering beings mortal. It’s unnatural and it made the entire world unstable, the devs even confirm it. I don’t know why were even using a d&d scale in all of this but i digress. Case and point, sundered beings/ascians are living at the expense of the other. If i had my choice i’d side with the ascians 100% because in the end it would mean less death, a stable world, and no more wars.

[_Koneko_]

no one died in the sundering by hades's own words hades has killed more just because he don't consider them truly alive don't mean his not a remorseless mass murderer and the star is better of now that this monster has finally been brought to justice and the countless souls who perished at his hand has been avenged

if this was D&D hades would have gone straight to the nine hells lucky for him the life stream is not that judgemental and he will most likely just get reincarnated despite his many many crimes

[KizuyaKatogami]

no one died in the sundering by hades's own words hades has killed more just because he don't consider them truly alive don't mean his not a remorseless mass murderer and the star is better of now that this monster has finally been brought to justice and the countless souls who perished at his hand has been avenged

if this was D&D hades would have gone straight to the nine hells lucky for him the life stream is not that judgemental and he will most likely just get reincarnated despite his many many crimes

No one died by the sundering....are you serious? I’m just going to stop this debate because it’s going nowhere and you apparently haven’t read up on the story to know common things. The sundering rendered the once nigh-on immortal beings into mortal ones. This made them die to a much younger age,susceptible to illness which based on Hades’ short story we know wasn’t something the ancients dealt with, and suspectible to war. Not to mention it could be argued the sundering caused the death of people by destroying their memories and splitting them apart into fractured beings. The ascians killed a lot but you have to look at it from their perspective but also, think about how much the sundering has killed as well. Also you may not like it but he’s most likely coming back

[MikkoAkure]

Except again, it’s perspective. I wouldn’t see them as evil so much as trying to restore their world and loved ones back to how they were. Again, if we want to get technical, the rejoinings would save more lives than just keeping the world sundered. I’m so shocked honestly that people still continue to call them villains or zodiark is evil or they’re evil when the devs themselves said there is no good or there is no evil. Yoshi P specifically wanted this to be a story that isn’t black and white.

Except for Elidibus, the rest of the ascians have so far been shown as no more than mustache-twirling villains.

I’m not sure how Lahabrea could be considered “morally grey”. The man was a sociopath and said it was all for him and had to be corrected by Elidibus that it was for Zodiark. The rest of the ascians even called him an idiot.

Not everything Emet-Selch does is directly “for the cause” either. Like possessing a random innocent on the First and mutating their body until it looks like a form he’s comfortable with. Then there’s the Garlean Civil War, which he instigated on purpose to cause bloodshed and chaos despite it not being essential to his plans since the gas weapon was already tested and done.

And then there’s their whole MO: spread the seeds of conflict all across the world over and over, and then reap their harvest later when it suits them. They taught the elezen about the power of dragon eyes and started the Dragonsong War. That had no benefit to them for 1000 years until they decided they could use Thordan to go on crusade as a primal with the power of the Warring Triad.

Even with their goals in mind, they still seem intent on terrorizing the realm constantly and I’m not sure what part of that is “not being a villain”. Elidibus is their baby sitter and without him, everything would have gone to hell in a hand basket. They don’t even start listening to him until after Nabriales went rogue and got himself killed because he saw an opportunity.