Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

Ignorance is, until it is no longer ignorance. Once someone who was ignorant is informed, they are no longer ignorant and from that point on they may either adapt, or refuse to change. For the latter, then as they are no longer ignorant, their poor play is no longer excused.



Funny, for me it's 3 times out of 10. For this week, 0 out of 4.


Because it is complaining. People generally know that, hey, people on duty finder are average on average. You will see people below you in skill there. Some will be doing very badly. Some will be bots. Some people will refuse help when given. Hooray? Hooray.



Except that I'm not quite oblivious. I do know that there are people out there who are lazy and expect carries, as has been noted. And I do wish that people at large would start playing better.

But I acknowledge that while it may be malice or laziness, it might also be not. Unless intent is proven, one cannot act on that assumption, and all one can act with is what is presented.

One cannot also force a change in a larger community, not without attempting to start public blacklists like JP raiders do. The best one can do is to offer help where they can, when they can, with the understanding that the other party is free to disregard said help and that you are free to act as appropriate should the other party's refusal to take action continue to be a detriment to the party. If you really don't want to run the risk? Enter as a full premade.

What can be done besides? DF Tiering is a horrible idea. Autokick is a bad idea. Ostracising people who play sub-par is also a bad idea. All three of these will cause the game to wither and die in time.

You forgot to add the other part, where we live in the age where information is available at the finger tips of a person ignorance no longer becomes an excuse because it becomes a choice at that point.

In end no one really has an excuse to use I did not know at level 80 when it comes how to play their role.

FFXIV is easy enough where playing poorly is a personal choice. In the end you may be willing to look past ignorance others may not. Seem the dynamic here your standards are your own and others are there own.

One thing though ostracizing people who play poorly has not killed the game in Japan to my knowledge. As mentioned they have public list of players that perform poorly to avoid. So we do not know it would kill the kill the game in the west. Though I get black listing players for such a thing in the west would be frowned but I do not think it would kill the game, though maybe you are right it might kill the game.

Though I do think the best option is to promote kicking players one finds inconvent but instead of framing it as a negative we should frame it as a natural effect. Sure it sucks but it is not the end of the world to the same degree as those who say it is not the end of the works where an extra 2 min will not change much of anything in a dungeon.

Though I get I am in the minority when it comes to getting removed as not being a bad thing.

[linayar]

all incredibly niche hypothetical situations.

irrelevant really, and doesn't change the fact that the main two reasons for votekick remain being a detriment to the group, or being extremely unpleasant to play with. these are choices people make.



honestly just sounds like your system is just trying to protect bad team players from the consequences of their actions. talk about having the cake and eating it...

the current system works just fine. SE gives us a tool to remove potential detriments to the party, and honestly, the playerbase is pretty responsible in its use.

It doesn't need to be changed, especially not to where a single person can turn a simple votekick scenario into a vote abandon.

Have you actually been victim to or seen any of these reasons being the cause of a person being kicked? And if so what content were you doing when this happened?



Trying to make it harder to kick people when it's already hard enough can only really be taken as such though.

My proposed change does not protect bad team players or make it harder to kick them because, if the group agrees, they will still be kicked. In fact, it's even easier in some cases because the one being kicked also cannot use their friends to counter the voting. Like I said, it equalizes the voting field for all.

That said personally I can get behind your idea with the special vote, though I do think an easier system would be better. So how I would do it is if a vote to remove someone fails then the group has say a window any amount of time can do say 2 min that if the vote does not pass they anyone is free to leave the group without penalty. Would in practice have the same effect just minus the second phase of voting.

Unfortunately, that misses the point of the penalty in the first place, which is a penalty for potentially stranding your group mid run. The point of the second phase of voting is to clear everyone by abandoning the duty.

[ItMe]

You forgot to add the other part, where we live in the age where information is available at the finger tips of a person ignorance no longer becomes an excuse because it becomes a choice at that point.

In end no one really has an excuse to use I did not know at level 80 when it comes how to play their role.

FFXIV is easy enough where playing poorly is a personal choice. In the end you may be willing to look past ignorance others may not.

I thought I knew how to play PLD at 80.
Heck, I was clearing Savages and everything. I briefly joined a static and was playing on par with their tank.

Turns out I was playing PLD wrong and had no idea.
Sometimes things happen boy-o.
How do I know I'm playing poorly when FF14's main feedback is "did you wipe?" Especially for a tank where if our DPS is low no one looks at me.
It's not like people that are ignorant KNOW they're ignorant lol.

[Awha]

My proposed change does not protect bad team players or make it harder to kick them because, if the group agrees, they will still be kicked. In fact, it's even easier in some cases because the one being kicked also cannot use their friends to counter the voting. Like I said, it equalizes the voting field for all.

Unfortunately, that misses the point of the penalty in the first place, which is a penalty for potentially stranding your group mid run. The point of the second phase of voting is to clear everyone by abandoning the duty.

Though once someone leaves the party the rest are also able to follow suit or they can stay and wait for replacements. My suggestion still works under the assumption that if people leave others are free to leave without penalty.

It in effect will have the same overall impact but if someone chooses to wait for a replacement they are free to do so and losd the progress that has already been made.

I thought I knew how to play PLD at 80.
Heck, I was clearing Savages and everything. I briefly joined a static and was playing on par with their tank.

Turns out I was playing PLD wrong and had no idea.
Sometimes things happen boy-o.
How do I know I'm playing poorly when FF14's main feedback is "did you wipe?" Especially for a tank where if our DPS is low no one looks at me.
It's not like people that are ignorant KNOW they're ignorant lol.

Trust me I get it. I was able to clear content in WoW and it took until someone called me a shitter and to kill myself where I found out I was doing it all wrong.

Shit can happen, but just like I would tell my old self ignorance is no excuse when information is so readily available.

Also do not get me wrong SE can do better to teach people hell having a parse would go a long way to show people how wrong they really are playing. Thing is from a stranger point of view that is all moot. Point remains the stranger only has the persons perfomance to go by end of story. The information is out there it is not up to the group to be like whelp they did not know so let us teach them or give them a break. Sure most groups may be like that but I do not think it should be an expectation.

Please understanding I am not trying to belittle or downplay what you have done. It is great you have cleared content while doing it all wrong, though from my own stance it still does not excuse your ignorance in how you were playing nor does SE poor feedback system.

Granted I take things to an extreme especially ever since that whole issue in WoW. I felt embarrassed by the fact that I went so long thinking I was playing fine and did not have to look up guides or anything cause I was able to clear content.

Being ignorant in my eyes is also not inherently a bad thing it just means we lacked knowledge at that time which is fine. All that matters is what you do after you find out you have been ignorant do it adjust or not.

Though that does not mean it is the groups responsibly to put up with such ignorance. It is nice but should not be expected.

[linayar]

Though once someone leaves the party the rest are also able to follow suit or they can stay and wait for replacements. My suggestion still works under the assumption that if people leave others are free to leave without penalty.

Don't you also get a free leave if someone gets kicked? If that were the case, people would just vote kick anyway so they can get a free leave whether it passes or fails. I don't think we should promote a culture of leavers.

[SavishSalacious]

Greetings, fellow players. To get to the point, Final Fantasy XIV has a terrible culture of enabling. Enabling what? A lot of things. Bad habits, such as kicking people from novice network for trying to correct poor play. Creepy habits, such as the various illicit PFs and what happens there in. Enabling poor play and coddling players is probably the most visible. Such as for example a mentor got dogpiled on in Siren's NN for trying to correct a player whom had not done their job quest, because they "didn't feel like doing them". Honestly this probably the most toxic aspect of this game and its community. What can we do about it? It seems to infect almost every corner of this game.

You do know this is an MMO, played on the - wait for it - internet right? The internet is toxic. Log off and go outside.

Also you dont pay theirs or any on elses sub and people dont easily CONSENT to being told how to play.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You do know this is an MMO, played on the - wait for it - internet right? The internet is toxic. Log off and go outside.

Also you dont pay theirs or any on elses sub and people dont easily CONSENT to being told how to play.

Did you really just use the infamous “you don’t pay my sub” line unironically?

[linayar]

Did you really just use the infamous “you don’t pay my sub” line unironically?

To be fair, do people not use that unironically in game or are you telling me it's just a meme?

[Awha]

Don't you also get a free leave if someone gets kicked? If that were the case, people would just vote kick anyway so they can get a free leave whether it passes or fails. I don't think we should promote a culture of leavers.

Yes, only if someone leaves or gets removed. Though my suggestion was based around the idea that if a vote fails the people who do not wish to stay should not have to eat a timer due to that difference. So yes that may happen though I am of the mindset it is better to allow a person more options to leave without punishment instead of putting people through an experience they may not want to go through. I think it builds more resentment and has a greater potential to cause conflict or strife in a dungeon.

Which is why I also do not see anything wrong with people leaving content and personally I would vote to get rid of the timer all together though I know that is an extreme that many will not agree with. Granted, what would be awesome if they did remove the timer for leaving it just allowed someone to switch roles and still get exp for the role the queued in as akin to pvp. Though my mindset stems from playing many f2p mmos were leavers are very common so it just does not phase me when people leave. Guess it is not as much of an issue in my eyes though I can see how it can annoying.

To be fair, do people not use that unironically in game or are you telling me it's just a meme?

Tbf i think to FFXIV is meme to most people, at least that is how it seems to perceived by many on the internet.

[KizuyaKatogami]

To be fair, do people not use that unironically in game or are you telling me it's just a meme?

I thought it was a meme but you’re probably right. First time i’ve ever seen it used that way personally xD