Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

Whenever there is a conflict of interests, someone could lose out every time, so while my proposal won't change that, I think it's still a better system.

The reason why is exactly what you said about making it easier to remove people from the group. I think it should be the opposite. The situation where we lose out on the vote to kick and have to decide on whether to leave and eat the penalty or stay, that is a choice we are making for ourselves. Being kicked is a choice someone else is making for us. So we should make it harder for other people to decide our fate.

This does not change the idea behind the vote to kick system in that, if we are not wanted by the group, we will still get kicked. It's just done with less bias on the part of friends queueing together.


That said, maybe we could connect the vote to kick system and the vote to abandon system a bit. Let's say you are in a queue with one friend for a dungeon and you decide to vote kick someone. Your duo group gives 1 vote for "yes" and the third party individual gives one vote for "no", so the vote fails.

If that happens, then the player who initiated the vote to kick has a one-time chance to initiate a special vote to abandon for a limited time after the kick has failed.

With this special vote to abandon, then the person who is the subject of the vote to kick cannot vote, but everyone else votes individually now, so in the dungeon scenario, it'll be the duo's now two votes versus the third party's still one vote. If it passes, no one gets the penalty and everyone can requeue right away.

But since everyone votes individually now for the special vote to abandon, if the subject of the kick has more friends than the one who is trying to kick, they could still fail the vote to abandon, so the kick initiator still has the chance of having to choose to stay or leave and get the penalty.

I do get what you are saying, and overall I disagree but that is fine. Since you are right someone will always lose out that is why I think having a system where the least amount of ople in the group are inconvenienced is best.

Though I will say that I personally feel it does alter to a degree in those fringe cases the idea behind wanting to force people to make a choice on their own action verse the person having a friend be able to make a choice for another. Though I do not I inherently think having g a friend in queue with you should mean your overall contribution should be limited when it comes to aspects that impact the group. Overall we clearly have two different views as how the kick system should work. I get where you are coming from and I hope at the very least you get where I am coming from.

That said personally I can get behind your idea with the special vote, though I do think an easier system would be better. So how I would do it is if a vote to remove someone fails then the group has say a window any amount of time can do say 2 min that if the vote does not pass they anyone is free to leave the group without penalty. Would in practice have the same effect just minus the second phase of voting.

The assertion that "50% of all players" are "leechers" is overblown. The DF is on average, painfully average. My last four DF runs had me consistently second on aggro list right behind the tank, and that's alright? The runs themselves were neither particularly bad or good. People did mechanics correctly and the run was finished in average time. Friends of mine also report the same general trend, with truly 'bad' runs with obviously 'bad' people being not that common just as the truly 'good' runs from being paired with all-good people being also not that common.



I'm arguing in favour of not immediately assuming the worst of people for underperforming. My stance has been consistent - if someone is performing badly, offer help and offer it kindly. It is then their perogative on whether or not to accept help and, if they refuse and their stubbornness is causing the party grief you may remove them then. (But for the simple fact that they're 'underperforming'? There are too many reasons behind why that may be the case outside of sheer malice or laziness so that in itself is not kick-worthy)



One simply has to look at OP's tone. In the matter in which they refer to 'underperformers' (and their humble-brag plays into this: if they seriously think that they are average, then it stands to reason their idea on what is 'underperforming' might also be higher than is reasonable). Also in the suggestions they made. Yes, they certainly do sound absolutely livid and seem to be losing sleep at the thought of being 'shackled with underperformers' who are naught but 'social parasites' that are 'part of this great community' and are 'taking advantage of them'.




Which leads me to think you're missing my point entirely. As I said earlier in this response, my one single consistent stance is help people; I do hold the sentiment of wanting everyone to be better overall. And if you are bothered enough by people who are "underperforming" by your standards to complain about them then by all means extend a helping hand and help them get better. Do this, and do this with the genuine intent to help (and not, like some people do, to lord over others) then a surprising majority of players will heed your help. My last week literally had me in three different DF runs with 'underperformers' and all of them took to advice quite well. And this is the only thing you can do with 'underperformers' if you do indeed want these people to get better.

There will be some who will be stubborn and go 'you don't pay my sub (tm)' and there is nothing you can do about them yourself other than remove them from the party if they are indeed being that big of a bother/hinderance to the party's performance. Complaining about them does nothing, and trying to raise a call of arms against these people will, again, do nothing but end up in dirt flinging threads like you see here. These people exist. Acknowledge and accept their existence and deal with them as appropriate when you encounter them in the wild.

And I did also raise a point in making the average player want to get better --- and that's by being a bloody role model. Show new/unskilled players how things are done. That is why I was vehemently against OP's tiered DF in the first place.



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Thing is yes many reasons go behind why someone is underperforming but it is not the groups responsibly or obligation to account for every variable or possible solution as to why they may be doing something. Not wanting to play with someone cause they do not meet your standard however high or un reasonable is not toxic no matter how much you want to view it as such.

In the end we all have our own standards. This goes for both sides trying to push one collective standard is not the right approach. Though use the tools the game provides if you run into someone who does not meet your standard use the vote kick feature, in the end you may be shocked how many people have a similar stance and share a similar view as to what is underperforming.

Some would say your slight jabs are toxic. :P That being said I do find it funny that someone who is trying to push a degree of tolerance and acceptance for their fellow player is unwilling to offer the same for those who have differing ideas of views from you.

Sure the OP clearly has much higher standards for DF and their experience is not a typical one for those in the DF or game in general. Does that mean because it is not a typical experience and their ideas do create some problems we should attack or throw away what they are feeling or trying to say? In the end it is possible to disagree with ones point of view while still being respectful towards the person. Though I guess in the eyes of some if someone is viewed as toxic it is okay to be hostile to a degree.

I think it depends at least. I think a lot of people get anxious at the responsibility a tank holds and I don't think they can get over that without actually going out at doing it and trying it for themselves, they can find once they have the ropes that actually tanking is way less of big deal than it looks. I also say the same to people who feel healing is too much for them, but this game has always been accessible in the healing department. Like, even with the expectation to DPS, there's a LOT of content where not-DPSing doesn't matter and gives you plenty of room to find your feet.

People sometimes need to get in the swing of things before it clicks with them and find that actually, it's not so bad.

If you find that you can't get over it, then yes, maybe not for you, but sometimes just trying it and getting used to it is all you need to get over it and find that you may like it and are good at it.

I get what you are saying, though for those that know they need extra time to adjust or to get into the swing of things I do think they should also follow the same advice that is given to those that have higher standards. Go in with a premade group.

Though generally I will never understand the hesitation or fear when it comes to tanking granted when I first started to tank / new to the game my friends forced me to pull everything up until the boss as a level 15. Trial by fire. Was good time, forward is the only way I know because of it.

Overall the sad thing about tanks more our role in large pulls is important but also the easiest since our core gameplay loop does not alter much from 1 pack to 30. Expect every 30 packs you need to use cooldowns. ( I am exaggerating here )

Honestly when it comes to larger pulls I give more slat towards healers cause it can be a learning curve especially when your dps is low. That being said I think redistribution of tank skills would go a long way to improve tank hesitance and fear. I get it would break Lower content but I think the lack of notable cool downs plays a role in this fear of tanking.

Have you actually been victim to or seen any of these reasons being the cause of a person being kicked? And if so what content were you doing when this happened?



Trying to make it harder to kick people when it's already hard enough can only really be taken as such though.

I have removed people for not being a certain race. Granted it was a joke and we found the person afterwards and gave them 10 mil each.