Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Saefinn]

Going to get shit for this but I am one if those players that thinks if a tank is scared they should not be a tank.

I had an AV recently with a new tank, mans asked for small or large pulls. I told them to hold W till they cannot go forward. Mad lad did it and it was a blast. Tanks should have no fear. :P

Granted I will say that a newbie healer probably would have had a hard time healing that. Thankfully our dps was on point cause truthfully healing a tank through a few packs and the first boss was not as easy as I thought it would be. Been a hot min since I was last in AV not on a blu.

I think it depends at least. I think a lot of people get anxious at the responsibility a tank holds and I don't think they can get over that without actually going out at doing it and trying it for themselves, they can find once they have the ropes that actually tanking is way less of big deal than it looks. I also say the same to people who feel healing is too much for them, but this game has always been accessible in the healing department. Like, even with the expectation to DPS, there's a LOT of content where not-DPSing doesn't matter and gives you plenty of room to find your feet.

People sometimes need to get in the swing of things before it clicks with them and find that actually, it's not so bad.

If you find that you can't get over it, then yes, maybe not for you, but sometimes just trying it and getting used to it is all you need to get over it and find that you may like it and are good at it.

[Nethereal]

Or for wearing gear that others may not like or being a race others may not like or for not joining in the party chat. It's a consequence that can be for any reason, making the direct cause of the kick someone else's reason and choice, not the choice of the person getting kicked.

Have you actually been victim to or seen any of these reasons being the cause of a person being kicked? And if so what content were you doing when this happened?

Except it's not punishing anyone. If someone should get kicked, they will get kicked. If you need the help of your friends to kick someone, then it's likely you're the one who's trying to punish someone.

Trying to make it harder to kick people when it's already hard enough can only really be taken as such though.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Mini snip-
Then you\\'re not reading between the lines. There are many small thinks that hint towards most of this just OP being elitist and angry at the \\'rabble\\' - amongst them would be their repeat phrasing of underperforming players as \\'leeches\\' and \\'parasites\\', their advocacy for DF tiering and automatic kicking of their hated underperforming players. Their insistence that they\\'re \\'average, not even that good\\' when their numbers paint an entirely different matter -- 99s, >75s. Their assertion that they\\'re being \\'taken advantage of\\' by the \\'great community\\' and that \\'50% of people in DF are bad\\'.

So, one of your reasons the OP is an elitist is because they have some 99 parses and over 75 parses? Seriously? I do too, and i’m not anywhere near a “pro gamer” lmao. It’s such a huge misconception that it’s incredibly difficult to get high numbers in this game when it literally isn’t. I play the easiest job in the game and can get relatively high numbers but i’m nowhere near a pro level of play or an “elitist”. The reason it’s so easy to get a 75 or above btw is because of how tragic the community is where you can literally get a 99 just by pressing your buttons correctly. Anyways i digress. In regards to their phrasing with “leeches”, it’s a blunt description yes, but not at all inaccurate. These people we’re talking about can’t even take the time to look at a guide for their job(they don’t think they exist? You’re kidding me, that’s such a weak argument i’m not even going to address.) These people expect to just be carried through runs, holding back their parties. It’s why i brought up the Titania example. Everyone seems to just be talking about dungeons but it happens in trials as well except trials can prove to be an actual WALL for players. If you keep getting groups that don’t know how to dps, good luck beating Titanias dps check. It took me 7 different parties btw on my alt just to clear her trial a few months ago because people couldn’t pass it. That’s ridiculous.And again i bring up the gearing point.The game literally gives you item coffers in shadowbringers, yet i’ve seen countless people still have IL 290 weapons in ShB. At that point it’s just utter laziness/ lack of decency for other players. Whether you see it as enabling or not, it’s literally enabling. Reading some of these people’s comments and old posts, they seem just like me. Tired of seeing people defend these lazy players who waste other people’s time, and then when they call it out instantly get hit with backlash because this community cannot handle criticism whatsoever. I’ve honestly never seen this in any other mmo except this one. No ones expecting players to get 99’s or 75’s. I’m expecting them to know how to do damn aoe at level 80.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That losers part is not specifically aimed at you, but rather generally at those who more often than not consider people that perform sub optimally as "beneath" them or some such.

Also, let's all cut to the chase here, and speak directly about more practical terms: what should be done to satisfy those of you who feel that community is more strongly leaning towards the incapable? What's your solution? Tiered duty finder? All df duties turned to ranked, maybe, so only people in rank a can play together with others at rank a? Automatic setting to immediately kick those who died during a df duty? An automatic setting to immediately disband a party in case of a wipe? A setting where those who died can't get loot? A result popup in the end of a df content that ranks who does the most damage, heals, etc what?

What is the solution and action that you guys actually want to be implemented?

Well, for starters we can have the hall of tutorials actually teach people proper game mechanics. Yknow like...aoes, big pulling etc etc. My other idea however, i already know would be absolutely unpopular. Msq instances are a joke now. Make them not a joke anymore. Make people have to actually know how to play their jobs for it. A majority of players play for the story correct) Good. Put a wall in the msq. If they can’t get past it maybe that’ll finally give them the kick in the head there’s something wrong with their play and they need to address it. I already know people’s counters to this are going to be “but i wanna play for the story i don’t wanna be an elitist!” I’m not saying to make it as hard as a damn savage raid. But make it actually require things like aoeing, pulling big packs if you’re a tank. Dpsing if you’re a healer. Just small things like that could go such a long way. If Msq is as sacred as people say then i’m sure if they did this all of a sudden we’d see a spike in player learning. I think part of the problem is that these players dont really have an incentive to want to get better. This would give the incentive of hey, i need to get better so i can progress with the msq. I 100% think 99% of players have the capability of it. That's why it frustrates me to no end seeing some of the posts in this thread when people defend this kind of behavior, because its not only hurting other players who want to get through content, but you're also hurting those very same players youre trying to "defend" by telling them "no its okay, dont listen to them, youre fine". Instead of making them have to grow, you're holding them back. Thats my issue with this whole situation. It's how i feel about the whole raiding situation in general. Savage clear rates are low because people are too scared to do it. If this msq wall was implemented, it would serve as building blocks to also get people to try out higher end content if they so wish to, because believe it or not, savage aint that hard. Call me an elitist or whatever but i really believe at least 90% of the community has it in them to clear, they just need a shove. A very big, forceful, msq instance wall SHOVE.

[Awha]

Whenever there is a conflict of interests, someone could lose out every time, so while my proposal won't change that, I think it's still a better system.

The reason why is exactly what you said about making it easier to remove people from the group. I think it should be the opposite. The situation where we lose out on the vote to kick and have to decide on whether to leave and eat the penalty or stay, that is a choice we are making for ourselves. Being kicked is a choice someone else is making for us. So we should make it harder for other people to decide our fate.

This does not change the idea behind the vote to kick system in that, if we are not wanted by the group, we will still get kicked. It's just done with less bias on the part of friends queueing together.


That said, maybe we could connect the vote to kick system and the vote to abandon system a bit. Let's say you are in a queue with one friend for a dungeon and you decide to vote kick someone. Your duo group gives 1 vote for "yes" and the third party individual gives one vote for "no", so the vote fails.

If that happens, then the player who initiated the vote to kick has a one-time chance to initiate a special vote to abandon for a limited time after the kick has failed.

With this special vote to abandon, then the person who is the subject of the vote to kick cannot vote, but everyone else votes individually now, so in the dungeon scenario, it'll be the duo's now two votes versus the third party's still one vote. If it passes, no one gets the penalty and everyone can requeue right away.

But since everyone votes individually now for the special vote to abandon, if the subject of the kick has more friends than the one who is trying to kick, they could still fail the vote to abandon, so the kick initiator still has the chance of having to choose to stay or leave and get the penalty.

I do get what you are saying, and overall I disagree but that is fine. Since you are right someone will always lose out that is why I think having a system where the least amount of ople in the group are inconvenienced is best.

Though I will say that I personally feel it does alter to a degree in those fringe cases the idea behind wanting to force people to make a choice on their own action verse the person having a friend be able to make a choice for another. Though I do not I inherently think having g a friend in queue with you should mean your overall contribution should be limited when it comes to aspects that impact the group. Overall we clearly have two different views as how the kick system should work. I get where you are coming from and I hope at the very least you get where I am coming from.

That said personally I can get behind your idea with the special vote, though I do think an easier system would be better. So how I would do it is if a vote to remove someone fails then the group has say a window any amount of time can do say 2 min that if the vote does not pass they anyone is free to leave the group without penalty. Would in practice have the same effect just minus the second phase of voting.

The assertion that "50% of all players" are "leechers" is overblown. The DF is on average, painfully average. My last four DF runs had me consistently second on aggro list right behind the tank, and that's alright? The runs themselves were neither particularly bad or good. People did mechanics correctly and the run was finished in average time. Friends of mine also report the same general trend, with truly 'bad' runs with obviously 'bad' people being not that common just as the truly 'good' runs from being paired with all-good people being also not that common.



I'm arguing in favour of not immediately assuming the worst of people for underperforming. My stance has been consistent - if someone is performing badly, offer help and offer it kindly. It is then their perogative on whether or not to accept help and, if they refuse and their stubbornness is causing the party grief you may remove them then. (But for the simple fact that they're 'underperforming'? There are too many reasons behind why that may be the case outside of sheer malice or laziness so that in itself is not kick-worthy)



One simply has to look at OP's tone. In the matter in which they refer to 'underperformers' (and their humble-brag plays into this: if they seriously think that they are average, then it stands to reason their idea on what is 'underperforming' might also be higher than is reasonable). Also in the suggestions they made. Yes, they certainly do sound absolutely livid and seem to be losing sleep at the thought of being 'shackled with underperformers' who are naught but 'social parasites' that are 'part of this great community' and are 'taking advantage of them'.




Which leads me to think you're missing my point entirely. As I said earlier in this response, my one single consistent stance is help people; I do hold the sentiment of wanting everyone to be better overall. And if you are bothered enough by people who are "underperforming" by your standards to complain about them then by all means extend a helping hand and help them get better. Do this, and do this with the genuine intent to help (and not, like some people do, to lord over others) then a surprising majority of players will heed your help. My last week literally had me in three different DF runs with 'underperformers' and all of them took to advice quite well. And this is the only thing you can do with 'underperformers' if you do indeed want these people to get better.

There will be some who will be stubborn and go 'you don't pay my sub (tm)' and there is nothing you can do about them yourself other than remove them from the party if they are indeed being that big of a bother/hinderance to the party's performance. Complaining about them does nothing, and trying to raise a call of arms against these people will, again, do nothing but end up in dirt flinging threads like you see here. These people exist. Acknowledge and accept their existence and deal with them as appropriate when you encounter them in the wild.

And I did also raise a point in making the average player want to get better --- and that's by being a bloody role model. Show new/unskilled players how things are done. That is why I was vehemently against OP's tiered DF in the first place.



草

Thing is yes many reasons go behind why someone is underperforming but it is not the groups responsibly or obligation to account for every variable or possible solution as to why they may be doing something. Not wanting to play with someone cause they do not meet your standard however high or un reasonable is not toxic no matter how much you want to view it as such.

In the end we all have our own standards. This goes for both sides trying to push one collective standard is not the right approach. Though use the tools the game provides if you run into someone who does not meet your standard use the vote kick feature, in the end you may be shocked how many people have a similar stance and share a similar view as to what is underperforming.

Some would say your slight jabs are toxic. :P That being said I do find it funny that someone who is trying to push a degree of tolerance and acceptance for their fellow player is unwilling to offer the same for those who have differing ideas of views from you.

Sure the OP clearly has much higher standards for DF and their experience is not a typical one for those in the DF or game in general. Does that mean because it is not a typical experience and their ideas do create some problems we should attack or throw away what they are feeling or trying to say? In the end it is possible to disagree with ones point of view while still being respectful towards the person. Though I guess in the eyes of some if someone is viewed as toxic it is okay to be hostile to a degree.

I think it depends at least. I think a lot of people get anxious at the responsibility a tank holds and I don't think they can get over that without actually going out at doing it and trying it for themselves, they can find once they have the ropes that actually tanking is way less of big deal than it looks. I also say the same to people who feel healing is too much for them, but this game has always been accessible in the healing department. Like, even with the expectation to DPS, there's a LOT of content where not-DPSing doesn't matter and gives you plenty of room to find your feet.

People sometimes need to get in the swing of things before it clicks with them and find that actually, it's not so bad.

If you find that you can't get over it, then yes, maybe not for you, but sometimes just trying it and getting used to it is all you need to get over it and find that you may like it and are good at it.

I get what you are saying, though for those that know they need extra time to adjust or to get into the swing of things I do think they should also follow the same advice that is given to those that have higher standards. Go in with a premade group.

Though generally I will never understand the hesitation or fear when it comes to tanking granted when I first started to tank / new to the game my friends forced me to pull everything up until the boss as a level 15. Trial by fire. Was good time, forward is the only way I know because of it.

Overall the sad thing about tanks more our role in large pulls is important but also the easiest since our core gameplay loop does not alter much from 1 pack to 30. Expect every 30 packs you need to use cooldowns. ( I am exaggerating here )

Honestly when it comes to larger pulls I give more slat towards healers cause it can be a learning curve especially when your dps is low. That being said I think redistribution of tank skills would go a long way to improve tank hesitance and fear. I get it would break Lower content but I think the lack of notable cool downs plays a role in this fear of tanking.

Have you actually been victim to or seen any of these reasons being the cause of a person being kicked? And if so what content were you doing when this happened?



Trying to make it harder to kick people when it's already hard enough can only really be taken as such though.

I have removed people for not being a certain race. Granted it was a joke and we found the person afterwards and gave them 10 mil each.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

-Please actually format your messages properly. It's hard to read-

Now I'm pretty sure you just straight up don't get it. It's not that they have 99s and over 75s. I will rephrase it, again.

1. Notably referring to underperforming players with insulting terminology/turns of phrase such as: social parasite and lazy and toxic while hiding behind a façade of niceties and people who are taking advantage of me (gcbtw!).
2. The humblebrag ("I am average" -> has 99s and >75s). If they acknowledged that they are skilled, even if not 'the best', then their stance would have been less unstable.
3. Incredibly selfish/inconsiderate statements and suggestions including advocating for 'skill-tiered' duty finder and 'automatic kicking of underperformers'. Assuming the worst out of underperformers.

Also numbers are numbers; you might think it's 'easy' to get high 99s and scores greater than 75 but listen, that isn't the case for everyone - it comes with practice, knowledge, and memorisation, all of which not everyone has at the same level as you do. It's easy enough to say 'oh, that's easy' once you've achieved it, but to those that have yet to it isn't so and such statements might not only fail to be a balm to their woes, but even run the risk of being downright offensive.

And yes it is entirely possible for people to get to 80 without being given guides. Not everyone who plays the game has the exact same gaming background that would make it second-nature to look for guides. Some might be lacking in awareness and/or misunderstand and/or completely fail to comprehend the guides shown to them. Even without guides there are enough 'noob traps' in the game's classes / jobs that even someone reading tooltips might go ??????. Some might have been given wrong advice (and I have personal experience in this matter) and all this is interlinked.

Learning is not straightforward and standard. People's minds don't all work the same. Charts and lists might work for some people, but to others it might as well be plain gibberish at best and a headache inducer at worst. Some might work much better with a hands-on approach like practical training and personal experience or coaching. This is teaching 101, and taught in basic EDU.

These people expect to just be carried through runs

AND THIS is what gets me. [Not doing everything correctly] -> ["Oh they're expecting to be carried"]. That assumes an active intent where people who don't do things 'right' are doing it out of sheer maliciousness or laziness. That is the issue.

You know that joke where someone goes 'but single target has more potency than AoE!' failing to grasp right away that a lesser number times a larger quantity is better than a larger number against a single one? Yes. Some people are that slow and/or fail at math, and that might not even necessarily be their fault, but that rather they had nobody to correct them or even tell them that, hey, it's potency times the number of targets!

At that point it’s just utter laziness/no lack of decency for other players.

these lazy players who waste other people’s time

As with my point above-- assuming malice. Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance, and I honestly have seen people make gearing mistakes out of ignorance/lapse of attention. I've seen people quite late into the game be ignorant of just how significant an impact gearing has, and conversely underestimate it. Calling people out on it kindly rather than with blunt annoyance (as annoying as it may be to hold back) goes a long way--- and then, if they demonstrate that it was out of laziness and not ignorance, sure. Kick. Do whatever. You have your evidence that they are indeed being lazy, are aware of it, and are willing to drag the party down with them.

they call it out instantly get hit with backlash because this community cannot handle criticism whatsoever

This last week had me saddled with four (three until today) runs with 'bad' players. I noticed issues and gave pointers. I did not face backlash and instead saw a marked improvement in each of those runs. I can't help but wonder why that is the case.

In either case, it just happens to be part of the human condition that not everyone thinks and learns the same. Some learn and/or pick up on things far slower than others, and to those who learn faster the laggard rate of the 'slower' ones might seem offensive. It might seem unbelievable but it's entirely possible to hit 80 (it's not hard, especially with skips) while remaining utterly ignorant of core concepts of your role, job, the fights. It's by no means pleasant when that happens, but it doesn't mean it's also necessarily out of malice or laziness.

To which I return to my point:
If you care enough about 'bad players' to complain about them and act personally offended at the possibility of encountering them in a duty (parasites! ree!), then the only thing you can do is reduce the number of 'bad players' by offering help. If you don't want to offer help, then there's nothing you can do about them and there's no point to complaining about it. Just run duties with pure premades. (You can try to take measures similar to what JP does and post a universal blacklist of 'bad players' on 2CH... or reddit, as in the case of the western playerbase, but I think you'll get banned for doing that and otherwise boo'd by the larger community.)

I’m expecting them to know how to do damn aoe at level 80.

A questionable situation, but in this case bring it up to them. If they prove a truth to this statement:

and then when they call it out instantly get hit with backlash because this community cannot handle criticism whatsoever

And that their actions continue to prove to be a detriment to the group? Sure, deal with them.

[Awha]

Now I'm pretty sure you just straight up don't get it. It's not that they have 99s and over 75s. I will rephrase it, again.

1. Notably referring to underperforming players with insulting terminology/turns of phrase such as: social parasite and lazy and toxic while hiding behind a façade of niceties and people who are taking advantage of me (gcbtw!).
2. The humblebrag ("I am average" -> has 99s and >75s). If they acknowledged that they are skilled, even if not 'the best', then their stance would have been less unstable.
3. Incredibly selfish/inconsiderate statements and suggestions including advocating for 'skill-tiered' duty finder and 'automatic kicking of underperformers'. Assuming the worst out of underperformers.

Also numbers are numbers; you might think it's 'easy' to get high 99s and scores greater than 75 but listen, that isn't the case for everyone - it comes with practice, knowledge, and memorisation, all of which not everyone has at the same level as you do. It's easy enough to say 'oh, that's easy' once you've achieved it, but to those that have yet to it isn't so and such statements might not only fail to be a balm to their woes, but even run the risk of being downright offensive.

And yes it is entirely possible for people to get to 80 without being given guides. Not everyone who plays the game has the exact same gaming background that would make it second-nature to look for guides. Some might be lacking in awareness and/or misunderstand and/or completely fail to comprehend the guides shown to them. Some might have been given wrong advice (and I have personal experience in this matter) and all this is interlinked.

Learning is not straightforward and standard. People's minds don't all work the same. Charts and lists might work for some people, but to others it might as well be plain gibberish at best and a headache inducer at worst. Some might work much better with a hands-on approach like practical training and personal experience or coaching. This is teaching 101, and taught in basic EDU.



AND THIS is what gets me. [Not doing everything correctly] -> ["Oh they're expecting to be carried"]. That assumes an active intent where people who don't do things 'right' are doing it out of sheer maliciousness or laziness. That is the issue.

You know that joke where someone goes 'but single target has more potency than AoE!' failing to grasp right away that a lesser number times a larger quantity is better than a larger number against a single one? Yes. Some people are that slow and/or fail at math, and that might not even necessarily be their fault, but that rather they had nobody to correct them or even tell them that, hey, it's potency times the number of targets!



As with my point above-- assuming malice. Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance, and I honestly have seen people make gearing mistakes out of ignorance/lapse of attention. I've seen people quite late into the game be ignorant of just how significant an impact gearing has, and conversely underestimate it. Calling people out on it kindly rather than with blunt annoyance (as annoying as it may be to hold back) goes a long way--- and then, if they demonstrate that it was out of laziness and not ignorance, sure. Kick. Do whatever. You have your evidence that they are indeed being lazy.



This last week had me saddled with four (three until today) runs with 'bad' players. I noticed issues and gave pointers. I did not face backlash and instead saw a marked improvement in each of those runs. I can't help but wonder why that is the case.

In either case, it just happens to be part of the human condition that not everyone thinks and learns the same. Some learn and/or pick up on things far slower than others, and to those who learn faster the laggard rate of the 'slower' ones might seem offensive. It might seem unbelievable but it's entirely possible to hit 80 (it's not hard, especially with skips) while remaining utterly ignorant of core concepts of your role, job, the fights. It's by no means pleasant when that happens, but it doesn't mean it's also necessarily out of malice or laziness.

To which I return to my point:
If you care enough about 'bad players' to complain about them and act personally offended at the possibility of encountering them in a duty (parasites! ree!), then the only thing you can do is reduce the number of 'bad players' by offering help. If you don't want to offer help, then there's nothing you can do about them and there's no point to complaining about it. (You can try to take measures similar to what JP does and post a universal blacklist of 'bad players' on 2CH... or reddit, as in the case of the western playerbase, but I think you'll get banned for doing that and otherwise boo'd by the larger community.)


A questionable situation, but in this case bring it up to them. If they prove a truth to this statement:

And that their actions prove to be a detriment to the group? Sure, deal with them.

Ignorance is not an excuse for poor play. We live in the morden age where a tome of knowledge is accessible at your finger tips. If someone is making mistakes / playing poorly like not using AoE's, doing single pulls, not popping cooldowns in larger pulls, being a free style sam ( joking aside I have seen a free style sam out damage people before ) being an ice mage etc . . . At level 80 then yeah no amount of ignorance is an excuse for doing any of those things at 80 imo.

Thing is we do not need to go down the public black list route what would help is an understanding that not everyone has the same standard or desire to play or help others improve and the DF does not necessarily mean you have to take what they throw at you and accept it or just leave.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

I’ll format how i want to, no one else seems to have a problem with it so... I’m not going to address youre other points because it’s just turning into a cycle with you that’s just filling up this thread unnecessarily. Your last point however, if you had actually read my posts, you’d have seen that i do give advice when necessary. And i’d say i’ve had it 9 times out of 10 the person gets offended by it and doesn’t actually take it. There is a reason to bring it up though, idk why you classify it as complaining so much as it is bringing attention to the situation. This is a major problem in the game. Don’t act like it isn’t. Based on how many people’s posts are in here and have agreed with my posts it seems to be a majority thought as well. Something needs to change. Whether you see it or not that’s on you for being oblivious to it and choosing not to see the truth in things.At this point though we're unlikely to change either one's views and thats fine. There’s gearing mistakes and then there’s, not opening the weapon coffer that the game literally gives you in the main story and has a significant number difference compared to the one you currently have(290 vs 390? yeah okay).

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Ignorance is not an excuse for poor play.

Ignorance is, until it is no longer ignorance. Once someone who was ignorant is informed, they are no longer ignorant and from that point on they may either adapt, or refuse to change. For the latter, then as they are no longer ignorant, their poor play is no longer excused.

And i’d say i’ve had it 9 times out of 10 the person gets offended by it and doesn’t actually take it.

Funny, for me it's 3 times out of 10. For this week, 0 out of 4.

idk why you classify it as complaining so much as it is bringing attention to the situation

Because it is complaining. People generally know that, hey, people on duty finder are average on average. You will see people below you in skill there. Some will be doing very badly. Some will be bots. Some people will refuse help when given. Hooray? Hooray.

Whether you see it or not that’s on you for being oblivious to it and choosing not to see the truth in things.

Except that I'm not quite oblivious. I do know that there are people out there who are lazy and expect carries, as has been noted. And I do wish that people at large would start playing better.

But I acknowledge that while it may be malice or laziness, it might also be not. Unless intent is proven, one cannot act on that assumption, and all one can act with is what is presented.

One cannot also force a change in a larger community, not without attempting to start public blacklists like JP raiders do. The best one can do is to offer help where they can, when they can, with the understanding that the other party is free to disregard said help and that you are free to act as appropriate should the other party's refusal to take action continue to be a detriment to the party. If you really don't want to run the risk? Enter as a full premade.

What can be done besides? DF Tiering is a horrible idea. Autokick is a bad idea. Ostracising people who play sub-par is also a bad idea. All three of these will cause the game to wither and die in time.

[Nayout]

I love how people are selling us a speech that new players had a mental deficiency that makes it impossible for them to read their skills, practice on a dummy or read what they say in the chat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtO6UH9g4d8