Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

Simple.

Paraphrased: "If you're a tank or healer initiating a vote kick, you exert peer pressure that makes it more likely for the rest of the party to agree with the vote kick. Take advantage of that."


The "will of the group" argument is debased by the possibility of peer pressure coming into play -- in that case it's not the "will of the group" but "one person's desires, enabled (ha!) by those who are swayed by their authority, imagined or real"

And you yourself encouraged taking advantage of the 'pressure' exerted by initiating votations as tank or healer to help remove people that are annoying you from the run. I'm not talking about 'this is actionable evidence', I'm talking about the validity of your "will of the group" argument. Which in itself is especially weak in 4-man content, since THERE you only need one other person to agree with you to succesfully kick someone.




And yet another statement from you that further debases your 'it's the will of the group' argument; having a friend along outright nullifies the 'it's the will of the group' argument as then you are guaranteed full sway on kicking (at least in light parties) even if the other half of the party disagrees with you.

Basically, your own statements debase and/or outright invalidate your "it's the will of the group" argument and paint your happy kicks as abusive.

And yes, that does make it annoying for GMs. But the matter of fact is that simply because you can get away with it doesn't mean it's not against the rules - - - you simply know how to break the rules without getting incriminating evidence on you. And that, that is even worse than breaking rules and leaving evidence.

Here is one problem with your view as per my edit. I do not think speculation can be used to debunk an assertion. The assertion being the vote passed so thus the group was fine with it.

Using my role to my advantage is still speculation on my part since I have no evidence to prove other wise. That is just my theory why it passes.

As for having a friend to stack the vote we are still part of the group and since the person being voted does not get a say in FFXIV the vote remains with the remaining 3 so if it passes even though I brought a friend it is still the will of the group.

The argument still stands that if the vote passes it is the will of the group. The vote passing is the only binary objective action we can go by. Did 2 out of the 3 remaining members vote in favor or against. That answer is an objectionable truth in this matter. Everything like me saying using a role may sway the vote is spectaculation. It may sway someone's vote and it may not. Me bringing a friend is moot since they are still part of the group.

Nothing I have said goes against the notion if a vote passes it was the desire of the group.

In the end the mere possibility without being able to prove the counter claim is not grounds to dismiss the notion that the outcome of the vote is not the desire of the group. Either it be positive or negative.

In the end the burden would be on you to prove my actions lead to peer pressure. Which cannot be done unless you are able to ask the party members of the group if they felt pressured or not. Do not get me wrong I do not dimiss the possibility and it is my theory why they pass but that is still just my theory and own speculation why a large number of my votes pass.

This is probably also why SE GM's might also be annoyed with such cases they legitimately cannot do much dispute maybe having a proper gut reaction. Granted I would be in trouble if GM's ruled off emotion but thankfully they do not.

Granted you could say me bringing a friend is manipulation but then that creates the questions should people that queue together not be able to vote cause it is unfair or should those that group togethers vote be counted as one.

Also the thing with just because something can be done does not mean it should be done. Is also just your belief, which I respect but I do not share. If SE wants to do something about this then they need to start enforcing their ToS.

[Hikelos]

In your example, I cannot agree though. I don't see the purpose of somebody putting spoilers - fake or not - in a PF.

It wasn't a "fake spoiler" in the sense that it talked about a possible event in the story that doesn't end up happening, it was fake in the sense that it was completely absurdist and meaningless.
As I said, 3 completely unrelated franchises. Like "DDR4 RAM kills my frying pan at the beach". Literally meant nothing, and he still got a suspension, and then got 'pingponged' , as he puts it, through support trying to appeal the ban, basically trying to tire him out so he gives up and takes it.
The point of that was to show how unreasonable the moderation can be.
Something I wanted to add, but ran out of characters, is that I have no idea how many or how few of the moderation team members will act unreasonably like this, if it's their personal decision, or if it's some kind of company-issued tactic to foster exactly this sort of oppressive atmosphere.
I have no way of knowing, and I'm obviously just speculating in that regard, but the problem of completely nonsensical and unreasonable moderation still exists nonetheless.

[SturmChurro]

It wasn't a "fake spoiler" in the sense that it talked about a possible event in the story that doesn't end up happening, it was fake in the sense that it was completely absurdist and meaningless.
As I said, 3 completely unrelated franchises. Like "DDR4 RAM kills my frying pan at the beach". Literally meant nothing, and he still got a suspension, and then got 'pingponged' , as he puts it, through support trying to appeal the ban, basically trying to tire him out so he gives up and takes it.
The point of that was to show how unreasonable the moderation can be.
Something I wanted to add, but ran out of characters, is that I have no idea how many or how few of the moderation team members will act unreasonably like this, if it's their personal decision, or if it's some kind of company-issued tactic to foster exactly this sort of oppressive atmosphere.
I have no way of knowing, and I'm obviously just speculating in that regard, but the problem of completely nonsensical and unreasonable moderation still exists nonetheless.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see them acting on what might be spam in the PF as "unreasonable". Again, I do think a full on Strike is harsh, but that player probably shouldn't have put that in the PF in the first place, in my opinion. However, there was another thread about a week ago on the GMs apparently not acting on PF listings such as "feet pics".

I tend to agree, and tend to think that they probably have different GMs who enforce the ToS much differently. One GM may not strike a player for one thing, while another will. Another reason a player is better off staying completely silent in this game, in my opinion.

[Hikelos]

I'm sorry, but I don't really see them acting on what might be spam in the PF as "unreasonable".

The PF was really recruiting, it just had a joke message too. There is no way something so innocent warrants any sort of intervention.
And since you breach the subject, it's pretty established at this point that spam relative to ERP and sexual talk/emotes gets a completely different treatment, which is why many speculate that it is the GMs personal decisions driving the moderation outcomes, rather than company policy.
You can absolutely get a suspension for talking back to people who publicly talk sexually in an explicit way in the middle of Limsa.
Also PFs for RMT carries have constantly been up throughout the 6 years I've played this game, the same people with the same discord tags since Heavensward.
It is really bizarre.

[Caurcas]

As the responses keep coming in, and having read alot of them. I see why NA/EU can't have nice things and are so far behind JP. Maybe they shouldn't ever listen to us.

[Saefinn]

There's a saying that goes: "If it smells like s*** everywhere you go, it's time to check your shoes."

If you're having issues with every or almost every DF, it's time to analyze yourself and accept that maybe you're the problem.

/thread

As the responses keep coming in, and having read alot of them. I see why NA/EU can't have nice things and are so far behind JP. Maybe they shouldn't ever listen to us.

Dare I say, your responses have been pretty telling too as to why it's roughly half the groups you get into are 'bad' when I've not see it as that high.

The game already has an option for you to avoid this if it's so intolerable for you.

People who don't meet your standards play the game. People get different things out of the game to you also play. Me? I prefer to help them, because I think it's better, especially if people pay it forward. It was the principle I was met with by FFXI's community back when I was bad at MMO's and once I "got gud" I paid it forward in helping others and have carried the same attitude over and in my experience of this game's community, that's what it usually is but with some bad eggs, but not as many as you imply. That I think is way more positive than "you're bad, stick me with somebody who isn't".

But that said if you prefer to avoid them because you have some nihilistic perspective on this game's community then that's your prerogative, you can make your own groups where you can be more selective than DF.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Here is one problem with your view as per my edit. I do not think speculation can be used to debunk an assertion. The assertion being the vote passed so thus the group was fine with it.

Using my role to my advantage is still speculation on my part since I have no evidence to prove other wise. That is just my theory why it passes.

Nope. You did not phrase it as speculation; you phrased it as an observation, and observations (in this case, that initiating vote dismissal as tank or healer often leads to at least one other person agreeing) can weaken your assertion. It would have been different if you said "I think if..." but you outright stated it as though it were fact. You don't get to retroactively reframe the aforementioned statement as speculation.

The "was it peer pressure?" is the speculation, as your stated observation hints at this speculation.

As for having a friend to stack the vote we are still part of the group and since the person being voted does not get a say in FFXIV the vote remains with the remaining 3 so if it passes even though I brought a friend it is still the will of the group.

But it is NOT the will of the group. It doesn't fall to the remaining "three", it falls to two of that three. Because in 4-man content you only need one other person to vote 'yes' for the motion to pass, then votations with premade are most likely to end up being a just the will of you and one other person who is most likely going to take your side. The remaining member may disagree with your motion, but they cannot contest what is, in essence, a rigged vote.

Therefore it could not be the 'will of the party', as two of four are powerless to the decisions of the other two -who are most likely to agree with one another- regardless of whether or not they would agree with a vote kick.

Your friend may still disagree with your motion, but nonetheless the bias that comes with being a premade is non-negligible. You hinted at this when you phrased it as "having a friend to stack the vote".

Me bringing a friend is moot since they are still part of the group.

You are, in essence, rigging the vote. It's most definitely not moot, especially as you yourself mentioned that you bring friends for the purpose of having 'vote majority'. They're still part of the group, yes, but note the point above involving bias. Also to the point below where you acknowledged that it can be manipulation. (And it is manipulation, or at last an attempt at one)

Granted you could say me bringing a friend is manipulation but then that creates the questions should people that queue together not be able to vote cause it is unfair or should those that group togethers vote be counted as one.

It IS manipulation, and I do agree that premade votes should count as one, for the sake of fairness -- so in the case of a 4-man, if you have brought one other with you, then decision of the fourth member of the party would actually mean something. If you brought three others, then your group becomes the 'party' by default.

Alternatively, and even better, everyone can vote, and premade groups' votes are consolidated -- if majority within premade voted yes, then it counts as a single yes; if tie or majority no, then it counts as a single no.

If SE wants to do something about this then they need to start enforcing their ToS.

They do. I have seen problematic people get penalised and/or banned for violating ToS even if investigations may take weeks. But there's little they can do to act on people who know how to violate ToS without leaving incriminating evidence. And that is exactly what you have been openly indicating on doing for a while now in this thread.

In the end though, the argument here is pointless since Square largely ignores these forums. I DO hope they pay attention though, because vote dismiss abuse is problematic.

Dare I say, your responses have been pretty telling too as to why it's roughly half the groups you get into are 'bad' when I've not see it as that high.

The game already has an option for you to avoid this if it's so intolerable for you.

People who don't meet your standards play the game. People get different things out of the game to you also play. Me? I prefer to help them, because I think it's better, especially if people pay it forward. It was the principle I was met with by FFXI's community back when I was bad at MMO's and once I "got gud" I paid it forward in helping others and have carried the same attitude over and in my experience of this game's community, that's what it usually is but with some bad eggs, but not as many as you imply. That I think is way more positive than "you're bad, stick me with somebody who isn't".

But that said if you prefer to avoid them because you have some nihilistic perspective on this game's community then that's your prerogative, you can make your own groups where you can be more selective than DF.

Well-said!

I too prefer helping rather than complaining by default -- and there's a beautiful joy in seeing people you've mentored become better players than you yourself are. It's for everyone's benefit to, at least, try to offer a helping hand, even if not outright coddle (my teaching methods can be summarised as 'trial by fire'). This applies to people you meet on the regular, and to people you meet on duty finder. You might not exactly see someone you've met on duty finder again, but if you had given them helpful advice and they took to it then people they will be running with in the future will have better runs.

But on that last bit... people have been telling them that they can go in as a premade, that it's a very real and very easy (assuming they have friends) option that acts as a one stop solution to all their problems. Yet they refuse to take the obvious and painless answer and continue complaining about duty finder of all things -- a place where, by default, you should expect people of all skill levels. :/

[Caurcas]

/thread





Dare I say, your responses have been pretty telling too as to why it's roughly half the groups you get into are 'bad' when I've not see it as that high.

The game already has an option for you to avoid this if it's so intolerable for you.

People who don't meet your standards play the game. People get different things out of the game to you also play. Me? I prefer to help them, because I think it's better, especially if people pay it forward. It was the principle I was met with by FFXI's community back when I was bad at MMO's and once I "got gud" I paid it forward in helping others and have carried the same attitude over and in my experience of this game's community, that's what it usually is but with some bad eggs, but not as many as you imply. That I think is way more positive than "you're bad, stick me with somebody who isn't".

But that said if you prefer to avoid them because you have some nihilistic perspective on this game's community then that's your prerogative, you can make your own groups where you can be more selective than DF.

I am what the community made me. For years I would tell people to hit their buttons correctly, to pull wall to wall, for healers to aoe and apply dots. When that was met with derision and dismissal. Now, I am suppose to be quiet lie down and think of the "casuals that don't have time to learn how to play!" I refuse.

[Nayout]

If you legit have to kick people every day, I would say you're the problem. I pretty much never have to kick people and I do everything through DF with whatever randos the game gives me.

That's what happens when you have 5 mentor roulette and more than 20+ Frontlines every day. In Mentor's roulette, I rarely have to kick someone but of course, I have found horrendous experiences. In Frontline I have to kick people every day because it seems like an insult to things like these.

And I do not speak that new players are people at level 80 or people who have multiple classes up to 80.

Some of you guys expectations are to low, thats a problem as well.

I don't think it is low expectations, it is simply that when people play they can only see what they do and for that reason they cannot see other people's mistakes.

When I enter a dungeon I am always attentive to what my group does because I can do it, because I already know the animations of the classes and I know perfectly well when someone is not using aoes watching their animations. In the same way, depending on how my healer is doing, is how I do the pulls in dungeons because I have enough consideration in my group and I know that if I do my job well as a tank, the healer will thank me.

We reached the final boss, I could not have kick the samurai but it seemed to me a lack of respect that while we were all doing our best to complete the dungeon, a person was walking with the brain off while ignoring the chat. Under the logic of many here I should not have kik him because we could have completed the dungeon but of course, it is a lack of respect with YOUR GROUP that when he is telling you something to improve everyone's experience, do not do it.

[Hikelos]

snip.

This has been a problem for years now, innumerable constant discussions about it, and yet we still get people deflecting away from the actual problem by pretending this is an issue about "gameplay performance".
The performance of the average player is only a symptom of the larger issue of community behaviour and ToS enforcement empowering the worst people among the playerbase.

Nobody is complaining about sub-par performance such as messing up your rotation, or missing a mudra, or missing a GCD, what OP and everyone else is talking about is people adamantly refusing to meet the very bare minimum.
And read that carefully, not "Failing", but "Refusing".
Adding to that, as others have said in this thread and as I know to be the case, a lot of the time these people will chastise you for trying to help someone who's making honest mistakes, which further exacerbates the problem and 'infects' new players with this mentality.