Is anyone surprised at this point?

[RinaB]

Current 5.0 DRK have recive heavy complains since the day the kit has been revealed back when SE lifted the info restriction to the youtubers that get invited for the especial event to try the new jobs skills, have been so heavy that several threats has been insta deleted without warning bcs some unfortunate manners about how SE totally miss interpreted the feedback. Since then DRK has been a non-stop of complains about his gameplay not only here but in the JP forum too and HW has been praised as the best version of the job in a way or another.

Is not a question of burnout basically bcs the job many use to love, me included, doesn't exist anymore. I consider create a mordernized version of HW DRK is basically what the job needs the most since is the comon point betwen most of the DRK feedback.



That rise another question, is fair snatch DRK from all the ppl who use to love it before 5.0 and leave it without nothing is fair? the answer is no, mostly bcs WAR is current DRK and current DRK is WAR so if DRK is reworked to recover the job we use to love the ppl who are playing right now still have WAR wich is basically the same gameplay with to little diferences.

So its ok to take current DRK away from people who like it and say "go play warrior" and you expect these people to sympathize with the "HW DRK is best" crowd? The devs have already made the decision to change the class dramatically in 5.0 and what im saying is to tweak and build on it instead of a whole new rework. Like I said in my previous post I think the rework every xpac was a bad decision but they did it anyway. As crazy as people think I am for liking current DRK, I for one can't believe people enjoyed the stormblood version but thats the dilemma the developers created. So since I keep talking about a happy medium and have not offered any solutions my hope is to use current DRK as a base and tweak it by bringing back key components from HW that people loved the most and make adjustments to accommodate the changes. Therefore we don't get a whole new rework, we don't have to play warriors, and people who love HW DRK at least get something. Maybe im delusional but thats the only thing I can see coming close to "pleasing everyone" which just isn't possible at all in life.

[RinaB]

Current 5.0 DRK have recive heavy complains since the day the kit has been revealed back when SE lifted the info restriction to the youtubers that get invited for the especial event to try the new jobs skills, have been so heavy that several threats has been insta deleted without warning bcs some unfortunate manners about how SE totally miss interpreted the feedback. Since then DRK has been a non-stop of complains about his gameplay not only here but in the JP forum too and HW has been praised as the best version of the job in a way or another.

Is not a question of burnout basically bcs the job many use to love, me included, doesn't exist anymore. I consider create a mordernized version of HW DRK is basically what the job needs the most since is the comon point betwen most of the DRK feedback.



That rise another question, is fair snatch DRK from all the ppl who use to love it before 5.0 and leave it without nothing is fair? the answer is no, mostly bcs WAR is current DRK and current DRK is WAR so if DRK is reworked to recover the job we use to love the ppl who are playing right now still have WAR wich is basically the same gameplay with to little diferences.

So its ok to take current DRK away from people who like it and say "go play warrior" and you expect these people to sympathize with the "HW DRK is best" crowd? The devs have already made the decision to change the class dramatically in 5.0 and what im saying is to tweak and build on it instead of a whole new rework. Like I said in my previous post I think the rework every xpac was a bad decision but they did it anyway. As crazy as people think I am for liking current DRK, I for one can't believe people enjoyed the stormblood version but thats the dilemma the developers
created.

So since I keep talking about a happy medium and have not offered any solutions my hope is to use current DRK as a base and tweak it by bringing back key components from HW that people loved the most and make adjustments to accommodate the changes. Therefore we don't get a whole new rework, we don't have to play warriors, and people who love HW DRK at least get something. Maybe im delusional but thats the only thing I can see coming close to "pleasing everyone" which just isn't possible at all in life.

[shao32]

So its ok to take current DRK away from people who like it and say "go play warrior" and you expect these people to sympathize with the "HW DRK is best" crowd? The devs have already made the decision to change the class dramatically in 5.0 and what im saying is to tweak and build on it instead of a whole new rework. Like I said in my previous post I think the rework every xpac was a bad decision but they did it anyway. As crazy as people think I am for liking current DRK, I for one can't believe people enjoyed the stormblood version but thats the dilemma the developers
created.

So since I keep talking about a happy medium and have not offered any solutions my hope is to use current DRK as a base and tweak it by bringing back key components from HW that people loved the most and make adjustments to accommodate the changes. Therefore we don't get a whole new rework, we don't have to play warriors, and people who love HW DRK at least get something. Maybe im delusional but thats the only thing I can see coming close to "pleasing everyone" which just isn't possible at all in life.

you have a duplicated post somehow ^^

It's ok that ppl like me has suffered his fav job been taked away to give this WAR copy? The devs make a lot of bad decisions and that's doesnt mean they should stick on it, remember HW bard for example many hate it some like it, the thing is i don't consider healty the job have to sufer constant reworks bcs the devs screw up and i preffer evolution, but i want that evolution based on HW DRK the original one and not the current WAR copy pasta bcs it just would be forever "WAR with" and i pretty much dislike WAR gameplay thats why i been forced to stop playing DRK complety. It's not a fair situation for any part but considering WAR gameplay already exist is more fair bring back old DRK or basically something based on how it was and have 2 more unique jobs that what we have now.

Now to mention many hate current delirium and dislike Blood weapon nerf betwen how useless is the Darkside mechanic, those are good reasons to re-estructure the job kit to make it work in a more unique way that is not based on a current job on the same role.

[Khalithar]

The Grit adjustment is just ridiculous. Did we ever had enmity problems with Living Shadow?!

The living shadow thing sounds like more of a bug fix rather than being meant as a direct buff.

[WhyAmIHere]

Thats fine but despite forum opinion there are a lot of people out there who like the current iteration of DRK, so screw them because HW DRK is best? This is my point, the reason why they keep reworking the class is because they can't find a happy medium and each rework has created its fan base. I think the issue started with the decision to rework the job each xpac instead of tweaking it for 1, for 2, I like current DRK and hope they build on to it because now I'm worried about 6.0 when I should be excited for it. Burnout is relevant because like real life, when you spend too much time at work or too much time with anything you start becoming annoyed by even the smallest of issues.

so your enjoyment is more valid that everyone else? Is that the take you wanna carry on with?
How about the myriad threads, hundreds if not thousands of posts by people across the globe saying "DRK is flawed, please address?"
Listen I'm happy you enjoy what DRK is now but frankly I don't honestly care that you like what it is now. You're going up against the HW DRK players and the SB DRK players, all of whom were shafted by DRK's continual redesigns.

And yet I can't justify directing this frustration towards you and others like you. I should be directing my ire, as should everyone, at the development team for letting things get this damn far out of hand. Why has DRK gone through so many wildly expansive changes? Why hasn't DRK had a consistent gameplay identity besides a super niche, and frankly outdated and outclassed "anti-magic" tank? Why was the idea in 5.x to just make it a copy of WAR? Why has DRK gotten nothing in terms of meaningful adjustments this entire expansion? Why is the perception that DRK player feedback is just ignored? Why is there a lack of engagement? Why?

I enjoy this game. But I can't help but see it's flaws and shortcomings and just be disappointed. I want to see it get better, not just "it makes Square Enix truckloads of cash." But it's getting more difficult as time goes on, just to have "well you're dumb and wrong and your opinion is bad and smelly and not mine so you're entirely not worth listening to lalala."

Healers have been shafted this expansion. Tanks have been shafted this expansion. Some DPS have been shafted this expansion. But only one of those three groups has really had anything done to help them out, and it's not the role the least amount of people play yet is just as if not more important.

[RinaB]

so your enjoyment is more valid that everyone else? Is that the take you wanna carry on with?
How about the myriad threads, hundreds if not thousands of posts by people across the globe saying "DRK is flawed, please address?"
Listen I'm happy you enjoy what DRK is now but frankly I don't honestly care that you like what it is now. You're going up against the HW DRK players and the SB DRK players, all of whom were shafted by DRK's continual redesigns.

And yet I can't justify directing this frustration towards you and others like you. I should be directing my ire, as should everyone, at the development team for letting things get this damn far out of hand. Why has DRK gone through so many wildly expansive changes? Why hasn't DRK had a consistent gameplay identity besides a super niche, and frankly outdated and outclassed "anti-magic" tank? Why was the idea in 5.x to just make it a copy of WAR? Why has DRK gotten nothing in terms of meaningful adjustments this entire expansion? Why is the perception that DRK player feedback is just ignored? Why is there a lack of engagement? Why?

Well first of all I never said it was a good thing the class got reworked so dramatically. I also never said it was a good thing to ruin it for the people who liked it. I barely played DRK in stormblood because it felt like a clunky mess of button mashing to do what you could on a warrior with half the effort and more damage. Like I said in my double post (not sure how that happened) I would like to see the devs stop the reworks and find some happy medium. Now I understand thats pretty much another rework but maybe it doesn't have to be so dramatic.

Yes I like current DRK, but its not without its flaws. Its not perfect and it wasn't perfect in the other xpacs either. After the 5.0 rework I think its pretty apparent they are not going back to the HW model and its not just for DRK. So what im trying to talk about is where is the compromise? How can we retain the best of the old and the best of the new? Maybe its impossible, im not a dev but I dont like this argument of "I don't care if you like drk, I want hw drk back and screw you". Let's say you all got HW DRK back and your dreams came true. Would I adapt and play it? Yes. Would people start coming up with all kinds of new threads complaining about it or leaving the job entirely? Yes. So why does it have to be so extreme? Because they might change it so much in 6.0 that we ALL hate it and i think im justified in my worries about this.

[DaulBan]

[...]After the 5.0 rework I think its pretty apparent they are not going back to the HW model and its not just for DRK. So what im trying to talk about is where is the compromise? How can we retain the best of the old and the best of the new? Maybe its impossible [...]

I mean, it's not impossible in the same way that quantum mechanics mean a lot of things are technically possible just really unlikely. But I feel like the chances of them going back to their roots of weird anti-synergy are probably long past. DADM + DADP + Blood Price will never be a hilariously expensive combo again.

Furthermore, a la WhyAmIHere

Why has DRK gotten nothing in terms of meaningful adjustments this entire expansion? Why is the perception that DRK player feedback is just ignored? Why is there a lack of engagement? Why?

DRK usage rates are just fine. Why would they dedicate time to a huge overhaul of a job that has a reasonably sized population of players? Bard has oodles more reasons to be adjusted, but hasn't exactly been reworked from the ground up itself. If there's no Bard rework in the works, why would they spend money redesigning DRK when people are already using it? Their rationale (I'm guessing) is that if people don't like it they'll try something else. I mean, DRK usage (proportionally) is waaay better now than it was during Stormblood, so it's probably mission successful to them. Even if I vaaastly prefer StB DRK, I was clearly in a smaller minority then compared to the people who like it now.

[Lyth]

Why make anything better? Well, that's what the competition does.

If you were designing a new expansion, what would you be doing? Hopefully looking through job designs and making improvements, for one. It's surprising that some abilities, like Divine Veil and Living Dead, continue to remain completely unaltered in their original, clunky forms. Surely someone must have looked at them at some point between 2015 and today. It's odd that they're so talked about by players, but we're yet to hear any sort of dev commentary. I'd love to read a really in depth interview on what any dev feels about the state of tanks, current abilities and interactions, and content design. What's your design philosophy? What gameplay direction are you moving in? But even when you hear a role mentioned it gets discussed in only the most general of terms.

There's a progressive move away from giving tanks wipe potential. Tankbusters are rarer, and damage is less scary. Mob movement in raids is less frequently under our control. That's fine, but I want to see someone come out and say that, and outline their philosophy behind how they want tanks to contribute in the future. Are we going to become melee dps with frontal positionals? If so, will we get more engaging rotations, more opportunities for skilled play, and more opportunities to have impact?

You don't have to rework everything, but you do need to let players in on your thought process and communicate with them. And historically we've had a lot of radio silence, especially because all the communication comes from a single person, instead of from the people directly involved in job design.

[RinaB]

Why make anything better? Well, that's what the competition does.

If you were designing a new expansion, what would you be doing? Hopefully looking through job designs and making improvements, for one. It's surprising that some abilities, like Divine Veil and Living Dead, continue to remain completely unaltered in their original, clunky forms. Surely someone must have looked at them at some point between 2015 and today. It's odd that they're so talked about by players, but we're yet to hear any sort of dev commentary. I'd love to read a really in depth interview on what any dev feels about the state of tanks, current abilities and interactions, and content design. What's your design philosophy? What gameplay direction are you moving in? But even when you hear a role mentioned it gets discussed in only the most general of terms.

I agree with you and I'll give my own opinion as to whats probably going on here. Based on what I saw going from stormblood DRK and MCH to shadowbringers DRK and MCH, theyre wanting to streamline jobs who were "cluttered" and make them more user friendly. The MCH rotation was so tedious to manage in SB and so was DRK and you could achieve the same if not better results from other jobs without all the buttons and constant micro management. Obviously people love this sort of gameplay and I dont have an issue with peoples gaming preferences (which is why no ui looks the same). I for one prefer a smoother experience that still demands I manage my character but leaves me a lot more room to focus on the game instead of staring at my ui constantly. This is one of the biggest reasons I do like current DRK but that doesn't go without saying I would like another melee combo alternative to the 1,2,3, a rework of delirium to get us away from WAR 5 hit spam and a BW rework. This is just my 2 cents on what seems to be their design decisions moving forward and I think the "buttons tank" is now GNB. Maybe im wrong who knows.

[Shin96]

Thing is, DRK most likely got gutted because the skill ceiling was too high for the average player to manage. Why would you make something as complex as possible if the rewards outweigh the benefits? Complexity needs to be rewarding enough to engage the player in its intricacy to the point their learning experience shows steadfast results.

The overall design philosophy behind tanks has drastically changed in 5.0, albeit in a very simple way. Enmity generation has been essentially cut. The battle climax always ends the same way, in which your damage output is irrelevant. Now, I know some people aren't particularly fond of enmity but you cannot logically cut something without finding a proper replacement instead. Tanking feels unrewarding because there's nothing you can do wrong. Take a DPS for example, their primary goal is to maximize efficency and use their skills accordingly to decrease their enemies HP significantly. The lesson learned is if you play lazy the timer shows you that your run took far longer than it needed. The message is clear. What can be said about tanks however? Aside from your regular Tank Buster and popping CD's there's little to nothing that can go wrong. The game doesn't demand much from you and it can feel somewhat underwelming when gameplay holds your hand.

You can design encounters from the perspective of a tank, for one. As a matter of fact, the last dungeon added in patch 5.5 has a fight where you need to place mobs accordingly to avoid damage to your entire party. With this in mind, I'm confident the developers have understood the gravity of the situation and will make further adjustments regarding all the criticism players were vocal about. To an extend Shadowbringers was a neccessary, albeit painful rework trying to adress issues that originally started when HW branched off to SB, a time in which the mindset has changed and much more people started playing FFXIV. Naturally, you ought to adjust classes to avoid negative feedback from your playerbase.

With all of this said, I believe you can make something complex and rewarding without overwhelming the player. What once was is now gone, but that doesn't exclude the possibility to enhance the experience and introduce more versatlity to each tank. Give real meaningful impact towards the interactivity of each action, it's all possible but we're all at the mercy of the developers and we can only but trust that they make the right decisions for us.