"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[SaberMaxwell]

Hard to beat the elitism of "don't play the game, you "s**k"".

In my opinion, we found a winner then. "This Final Fantasy game doesn't stand to my standards for Final Fantasy, ergo it doesn't deserve to be a numbered title" is, I feel, a bit more elitist than that because it's a sweeping condemnation, intended or not, against people who like those games. "You may like Final Fantasy, but you like the fake Final Fantasy."

It doesn't sound like the amount of effort the average player put into Final Fantasy V is nearly enough for XIV gamers. And XIV fans don't seem interested in that demographic playing, either. According to Final Fantasy XIV players, the average Final Fantasy offline player would seem to be a "you don't pay my sub toxic casual" who parses badly and didn't read a guide for Chrysalis while enjoying the story. It's hardly any wonder that such fans aren't so interested embracing Final Fantasy Online in kind.

My problem is, you've decided your conclusion (FFXIV players are toxic) and are working your way back from there. That's how bigotry forms, not educated opinions. You're free to dislike FFXIV, you're free to dislike the community, you're free to dislike every online community ever. What I don't like is seeing someone sling mud while they themselves are coated in dirt: "I'm starting to see why some think the online Final Fantasy games aren't worth being numbered titles" is probably the most elitist thing I've seen written all thread. Immediately, you created two groups, the "offline final fantasy players" and the "online final fantasy players," disregarding people who play both of course, and you set one as being more righteous (as in, able to decide what counts as 'real final fantasy') and one as toxic (those toxic online final fantasy players never appreciate what other people do!). Wanna know why this is more toxic than elite vs casual?

Because in one fell swoop, you created a scenario where anybody who disagrees with you is in the "other" group, the toxic online final fantasy player group, and because they're in the "other" group that you've predefined, and their opinions will be weighted in light of that.

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Splitting in two because the above was my main point, the rest is tangential but worth responding to.

And the offline games are very story and exploration focused(well, XIII isn't exploration focused at all). There are entire video series dedicated to how overpowered you can get early in the game.

So there are guide videos that you watch, that teach you the game's mechanics beyond what the game does, and following the methods shown helps one to more smoothly facilitate their experience in the game?

In Final Fantasy VII, it's easy to get to a point where you can blow past even Ruby Weapon without any effort via lucky sevens. And in Final Fantasy VIII, all you need to do is grind cards and AP. The rest of the game practically plays itself if you get the right cards and GF abilities early on.

So there are multiple strats for how to handle a boss that are well-documented and, through community memetic transfer, have become commonplace? I'll spell my gist out here: I'm not seeing anything that FFXIV guide videos wouldn't likewise be considered as. Knowing Lucky Sevens and exploiting it is metagame knowledge that the game itself doesn't teach you, and if you did intuit it and figure out to use it on Ruby Weapon then congratulations on that. Knowing optimal grinding methods (and, of course, in FF8 specifically, how grinding levels straight can actually make things harder for you because of enemy scaling) are pretty external. "If you get the right cards and GF abilities early on" is the key phrase here.

And in offline Final Fantasy games, there's no one there to tell you that you should stop playing the game because you're not good enough.

Nope, and likewise, there's nobody there who will pull you through a difficult boss fight unless you go out on your own to learn the strategies for progression in the game or the exploits in the game mechanics themselves. The onus falls solely on you whether you beat your head against a bossfight till it budges, research strategies to beat it, or powergrind past it.

But hey, we have "git gud or stop playing video games" right here in our very own thread!

Yeah, we do indeed have trolls. And if they actually believe that, then whatever, let them be off in their own world. We've seen how MMORPGs for the hardcore, like Darkfall or Mortal Online, have shriveled up and died. Given that this game is not a sandbox full-loot PVP MMO, and instead caters more to the casual audience, you should have no trouble avoiding people like them and building your own friend circle to run content with in FFXIV.

It's little wonder to me after reading such, why offline gamers, and offline Final Fantasy fans, have a lack of interest in MMORPGs and don't want to give Final Fantasy XIV a chance, either.

This seems silly. It's like saying "It's little wonder why Kingdom Hearts 2 players don't like Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. Those Chain of Memories players are elitists!" No, it's more likely because it's an entirely different kind of game. That doesn't make Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories somehow lesser than KH2, but they are different games and thus target different audiences. Or, I guess more in line with the MMO genre as a whole, of course World of Warcraft didn't capture every Warcraft 3 player's heart, because World of Warcraft is a different genre of game altogether.

[SturmChurro]

Show me it.

Actually show me it.

I'm on your dang data center and quite literally get the same players as you. Show. Me. It.

Oh wait, how strange, you can't. Because the community, in honestly, is the opposite (Casual elitism). I've seen so many times someone is defended on the stupidest things, such as literally afking group content in the current patch, because it's not savage.

Yet not once have I, in 6 years, seen anyone say don't play the game.

Here on Primal I've definitely seen that before. I guess on Crystal players are just really nice then?

[strawberrycake]

Hard to beat the elitism of "don't play the game, you "s**k""..........etc

Ok so you got burned in a Chrysalis run, not even trying to sound mean, get over it, it happpened, thats literally life more then FF, you get in booty situations sometimes and it sucks, BUT, its usually a one time occurence. If you were the problem, dont be the problem next time, thats all anyone playing FF general asks in all forms of content.

They're against it because they also probably suck at learning how to do mechanics and probably over lvl each boss fight because of it, and are mad they can't do it in an MMO .

Yeah I said they suck, because of my earlier point, FF is a very, and I mean Veeeeeeery casual JRPG franchise in comparison to many other JRPGs, when you compare length, when you compare game mechanics, when you compare, how much you have to put in for you to get through the game, FF games, are not that hard. My statement may be harsh, but its ultimately true, I've been playing FF games all my life, and sorry to break your heart, single player FF aint that hard.

And yes don;t play the game, you obviously hate it so much, just drop it and get a refund or something, take the L and move on. No sense in staying if its sooooooooo bad right?

[Seraphor]

"And these are two statements that absolutely cannot coexist. "
They can and they do.
Different people can have opposing viewpoints. Crazy idea that.

[EirolOcarrol]

Ok so you got burned in a Chrysalis run, not even trying to sound mean, get over it, it happpened, thats literally life more then FF, you get in booty situations sometimes and it sucks, BUT, its usually a one time occurence. If you were the problem, dont be the problem next time, thats all anyone playing FF general asks in all forms of content.



Yeah I said they suck, because of my earlier point, FF is a very, and I mean Veeeeeeery casual JRPG franchise in comparison to many other JRPGs, when you compare length, when you compare game mechanics, when you compare, how much you have to put in for you to get through the game, FF games, are not that hard. My statement may be harsh, but its ultimately true, I've been playing FF games all my life, and sorry to break your heart, single player FF aint that hard.

And yes don;t play the game, you obviously hate it so much, just drop it and get a refund or something, take the L and move on. No sense in staying if its sooooooooo bad right?

If your goal is to have me consider your opinions, you're not doing a very good job of that right now.

Your making a whole lot of assumptions, and incorrect ones, at that, about me and my opinions. And being needlessly hostile in a way that makes me much less receptive to what you have to say.
If anything, I feel a lot more emboldened and entrenched in my opinions right now, after reading your post.

If anything, it feels like you're proving my point. You're assuming I had a bad experience, and then proceeding to belittle me and said experience that you've assumed.
You're assuming that I don't claim that offline Final Fantasy games are easy. They are easy, and I don't think that's a bad thing. They're story first games. So you're supporting the point I'm trying to make by saying that.
Not sure why you would assume that hearing Final Fantasy is an easy video game series, a point I've been trying to make myself, would "break my heart". But I guess you were hoping to sound insulting and rude as you could manage. I expected as much when I challenged metagaming.

[GeminiReed]

Here on Primal I've definitely seen that before. I guess on Crystal players are just really nice then?

Nah, there's just as much snide passive aggressiveness on Crystal as anywhere else. I've seen people non ironically whining about people dying in MSQ roulette and several similar incidents in Chrysalis. Essentially those folks are tryhards or have enough self-esteem issues that they need to put others down. Pity them if you will but they're not worth spending much emotion on.

[strawberrycake]

If your goal is to have me consider your opinions, you're not doing a very good job of that right now.

Your making a whole lot of assumptions, and incorrect ones, at that, about me and my opinions. And being needlessly hostile in a way that makes me much less receptive to what you have to say.
If anything, I feel a lot more emboldened and entrenched in my opinions right now, after reading your post.

If anything, it feels like you're proving my point. You're assuming I had a bad experience, and then proceeding to belittle me and said experience that you've assumed.
You're assuming that I don't claim that offline Final Fantasy games are easy. They are easy, and I don't think that's a bad thing. They're story first games. So you're supporting the point I'm trying to make by saying that.
Not sure why you would assume that hearing Final Fantasy is an easy video game series, a point I've been trying to make myself, would "break my heart". But I guess you were hoping to sound insulting and rude as you could manage. I expected as much when I challenged metagaming.

YOu've truly missed the point then, ah well

[Penthea]

YOu've truly missed the point then, ah well

I don't think they came here to listen to anyone's points. They came here to rant about some massive problem that for some reason only they are experiencing extremely often.

[EirolOcarrol]

In my opinion, we found a winner then. "This Final Fantasy game doesn't stand to my standards for Final Fantasy, ergo it doesn't deserve to be a numbered title" is, I feel, a bit more elitist than that because it's a sweeping condemnation, intended or not, against people who like those games. "You may like Final Fantasy, but you like the fake Final Fantasy."

I really don't agree with that claim. The idea that Final Fantasy Online shouldn't count as Final Fantasy. I see is fairly often, particularly from people who don't like Online gaming or want to give Final Fantasy XIV a chance. What I find is that such people have a per-conceived notion of what an MMORPG is, and that it's different in a bad or unappealing way from a JRPG. And while I, and many other people have tried to dispel such ideas. The more I have started to realize that I may have been misguided, and that MMORPGs simply aren't for everyone. Final Fantasy fans especially. The community itself, the MMORPG community, does little to dispel the negative notions that offline RPG fans have about online RPGs.

My problem is, you've decided your conclusion (FFXIV players are toxic) and are working your way back from there. That's how bigotry forms, not educated opinions.

I don't have the conclusion that Final Fantasy XIV players are toxic. My opinion is more along the lines that themepark MMORPGs have pushed MMORPGs into a very narrow field of what an online RPG can or should be. And that the community, not the XIV community, but the MMORPG community as a whole, is pushing towards a direction of pushing and pressuring everyone into a metagame and style of play, that for many people, takes all of the fun out of playing a video game. Speedrunning and metagaming is a very specific gameplay style.

You're free to dislike FFXIV, you're free to dislike the community, you're free to dislike every online community ever. What I don't like is seeing someone sling mud while they themselves are coated in dirt: "I'm starting to see why some think the online Final Fantasy games aren't worth being numbered titles" is probably the most elitist thing I've seen written all thread. Immediately, you created two groups, the "offline final fantasy players" and the "online final fantasy players," disregarding people who play both of course, and you set one as being more righteous (as in, able to decide what counts as 'real final fantasy') and one as toxic (those toxic online final fantasy players never appreciate what other people do!). Wanna know why this is more toxic than elite vs casual?

Of course there are people who play both. I played Final Fantasy XI in grade school to a fixated degree where it negatively impacted my grades. I was hyperfixated on XI and Vana'diel. And also fell in love with XIV since 1.0. I had a lot of fun in 1.0, despite most people saying it was bad.

But there are also many offline Final Fantasy players who don't like the online games. For the longest time, I also wrote it off as elitism. I don't like the fact that some of my favourite Final Fantasy games are written off by the wider community. But I'm starting to slowly look at it from their perspective, and realize that they may have good reasons for not liking or wanting to have anything to do with MMORPGs. There are some pretty big downsides to this genre.

Because in one fell swoop, you created a scenario where anybody who disagrees with you is in the "other" group, the toxic online final fantasy player group, and because they're in the "other" group that you've predefined, and their opinions will be weighted in light of that.

I don't remember saying any of this.

So there are guide videos that you watch, that teach you the game's mechanics beyond what the game does, and following the methods shown helps one to more smoothly facilitate their experience in the game?



So there are multiple strats for how to handle a boss that are well-documented and, through community memetic transfer, have become commonplace? I'll spell my gist out here: I'm not seeing anything that FFXIV guide videos wouldn't likewise be considered as. Knowing Lucky Sevens and exploiting it is metagame knowledge that the game itself doesn't teach you, and if you did intuit it and figure out to use it on Ruby Weapon then congratulations on that. Knowing optimal grinding methods (and, of course, in FF8 specifically, how grinding levels straight can actually make things harder for you because of enemy scaling) are pretty external. "If you get the right cards and GF abilities early on" is the key phrase here.

This is a very different scenario. Because these aren't video guides, so much as "what if" scenarios. A niche style of play for people who want to spend the time grinding. Like the person who got to level 99 without leaving Midgar. It's not a guide, typically. It's just "oh neat, this is possible, and I actually did all this grinding to show what can be done". And the bigger difference is, you're not expected to watch a guide to enjoy Final Fantasy, offline, at least. People are expected to have their own playstyle, like most video games. Not knowing and discovering through playing and making mistakes is considered the default, as is traditional in video games. Failure is actually a good thing, not knowing is a good thing. Offline Final Fantasy games have a part of what makes video games magical, discovery through play. Not having to have a guide. Not being expected to read a guide before playing.

Metagaming, speedrunning, is all just bonus content. You're not considered a "toxic casual" if you don't metagame Final Fantasy VIII and keep yourself at the lowest level possible while maximizing your strength via cards, GFs, Devour, ect. In MMORPGs, many expect a player to have read a guide before going to a dungeon, even if watching said guide is a spoiler.

Yeah, we do indeed have trolls. And if they actually believe that, then whatever, let them be off in their own world. We've seen how MMORPGs for the hardcore, like Darkfall or Mortal Online, have shriveled up and died. Given that this game is not a sandbox full-loot PVP MMO, and instead caters more to the casual audience, you should have no trouble avoiding people like them and building your own friend circle to run content with in FFXIV.

Hardcore seems like such a strange term, I'm not sure what it means any more. It seems so contextual. In an MMORPG sense, most people tend to use the word for things like super challenging combat with complex things to memorize. The sort of gamer who thinks that Fishing isn't hardcore seems to decide what hardcore is. But if anything, I would think that sandbox by that definition is less hardcore than themepark, considering that the whole "memorize a dungeon/raid perfectly, along with the dps checks and ect." is more of a instanced dungeon sort of formula of game design. Sandbox is a much more personal and creative, self-directed style of play. While EVE Online is no Animal Crossing, the memorization, and complicated massive space battles and other things still don't seem to fit into what MMORPG players call "hardcore". Which is usually high tier instanced dungeons.

Someone could get no sleep and spend all day in Diadem with the Ishgard Restoration to get 1st place. But from what I come across, most people consider that sort of thing, "side content" and not important core gameplay.
Personally, I strongly prefer that sort of gameplay. But I can tell that many other players think of it as a silly time-waster because it's not an instanced dungeon. I like my silly time wasters. I'm an Animal Crossing casual, with thousands of hours in Animal Crossing games. Or am I hardcore because of the time I've spent? I really don't know anymore. What is "hardcore"? Usually when I see MMORPG players talk about hardcore, they mean difficult raids.

Where does Black Desert fall on the Casual/Hardcore spectrum?

This seems silly. It's like saying "It's little wonder why Kingdom Hearts 2 players don't like Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. Those Chain of Memories players are elitists!" No, it's more likely because it's an entirely different kind of game. That doesn't make Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories somehow lesser than KH2, but they are different games and thus target different audiences. Or, I guess more in line with the MMO genre as a whole, of course World of Warcraft didn't capture every Warcraft 3 player's heart, because World of Warcraft is a different genre of game altogether.

I think it's a very different scenario and a not quite apt comparison. No Kingdom Hearts game has a crowd of people who complain that others who aren't great at the game are "casual elitists".

[strawberrycake]

I don't think they came here to listen to anyone's points. They came here to rant about some massive problem that for some reason only they are experiencing extremely often.

I feel bad for them at this point, I feel like their wasting their money on a game they're obviously not enjoying, but its not my wallet in the end.