Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

[Lauront]

Actually it was conceived before Elidibus came back




https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../sidestory_07/

He came back as he himself said so to reconcile the two arguing factions as it was part of his job as Elidibus.

Thanks for that! Looks like I got hit by a dose of the Emissary's amnesia as I forgot that section. Either way, he would make a good proof of concept then. I'd like to compare that to the French one to see if it sheds any light but the 'freshy minted souls' makes me wonder if they came out as ancients or not, or what. It's possible we won't find out until later. It may have some bearing on why her faction had a preference for this.

[Lauront]

We know that Hydaelyn has tempered before. The cave paintings portraying her and Zodiark had smaller figures underneath them, sporting matching colors. We could get obtuse about it, and say that merely represented their factions, but I doubt that the Hydaelyn faction figured out how to summon a primal that doesn't temper on summoning, using the same summoning technique as the Convocation.

A line of thought I had, after Y'shtola and Krile aired their theory

At the end of 2.0 we see a flash of the crystals that represent the Source and the Shards. At first they are blue and bright, but then there is a flash, and they all turn purple and dark. Every other time we've seen them, they're portrayed in the blue. Looking back at that scene now, it seems to me as though the reverse could also be true. That is to say, we've never heard Zodiark talk to anyone. We assume this is because he is Sundered. and now with SHB, we also assume this is because he could be mindless from missing his heart. However, could it be that Hydaelyn can't take the time to talk to us, because she has to work actively to keep him mute/asleep? I for one, want to know, why is it that Hydaelyn can talk to everyone along all of the Shards and Source, but Zodiark never could.

I agree. The way they're going about it is...

there's gradations of tempering but not tempering at all requires, from what we've seen, a different approach, enslaving the primal in a sense by using already tempered summoners. There's little yet to suggest she falls under that category, and it would be simpler just to employ similar logic as with Tiamat for the both of them.

I also agree on the possible meaning of that flash change.

[Alleo]

Yes, but I am not saying that the intention was to cause a flood or that it was the will of the blessing - although there remain many questions around all that. My point is that it was the medium required for the Ascians' plan to work as it did, and enable the naive champions to spread the light, and it is that spread of the energy (light) which I am talking about.


The point here is that through gaining these Blessings, they become the harbingers of light required for their plan to work. The Blessing, even if it is not a form of tempering, certainly functions similarly in line with it in that singular respect: expanding the primal's element/energy.

I can see your point and maybe you are right but imo Mitron said in the Eden storyline that it was their action on the 13th that brought the imbalance especially on the first shard which is confirmed by her words that you posted. I agree that Ardbert and his friends were used to create more light but if I understand Mitrons words correctly he was the one releasing all the saved up light when he was turned into the first sin eater. Its sound for me like that was probably a lot of the Light that was created by the imbalance (however that is somehow possible) and Ardbert and his friends Light was only the tipping point it needed to bring it further towards a flood.

She says that "Primordial forces will strive to achieve equilibrium" so I guess no matter what the first was always much more turned towards the light. Which begs the question on what will happen with the first in the future? The 13th shard is still in a bad shape....if these strange forces still stive to equilibirium wouldnt they again turn the first towards the light?

[Jandor]

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

[Alleo]

On Hydaelyn:

We'll see how things go, but as ever I urge everybody to keep an open mind!

about your points

So now you want to make it so like we are "tempered" by her because we just want her to be good? We know that she is a primal but that does not mean that she is bad. Primals are after all acting according to their summoners wishes. If their wishes were to save the newborn lives and to have them live their lifes than how is that bad?

I want her to be good because I am tired of these FF tropes that every single god like being needs to be bad and destroyed. I also have a hard time seeing her as bad when we know that Answers is partly from her view.

Also we still dont know if its her reason alone or if the summoners intented her to do that. What if we find out that it was necessary to truly take care of the sound? And how is it bad that she desires to take out the Ascians? We can still remember the ancient ones but also can see that the remaining Ascians are a threat that needs to be stopped otherwise everything we know and love will be gone. She also does not prevent the truth from coming to light or did she ever stopped us from searching for it? Also since she is a primal it makes sense that she was made to believe certain things or that she does not know better. That does not make her bad it just means that we cant 100% trust what she says to be true, just like how we could not trust Emets rose colored glasses about his own people. But not being able to take every of her words as the truth does not at the same time mean that she is a bad guy either.

And yes there are stereotypes and for FF it kinda happens quite a bit that the Gods turn out to be horrible. So for me it would be much more a breath of fresh air if she was just good with her own kind of flaws.

But yes I do keep an open mind, If they do go into that direction I personally might not like it because right now I just dont see those points that make her so shady. It would just be nice to not always be called out as somehow close-minded or "tempered"...no we simply just want the story to go a certain way, just like I am sure that you have probably not wanted for Garlemald to be going in the direction its now. A nation purely built to do evil and create calamities that is now lying in absolute destruction while the people of Garlemald are tempered and used as a way to fulfill Fandaniels and Zenos wishes

Just wanna say, in JRPG's "Supposedly benevolent god is actually super evil" isn't really a fresh or unique direction, its actually incredibly common.

And I think people taking "sides" between the two based on the idea that one has to be malevolent is sorta missing the point. They were both created to save the planet. The definition about what "saving" it meant was just different between there summoners.

I think the actual direction there story is heading isn't "This one is the baddie go kill it" its, that the fact that two being both born of good intentions ended up being diametrically opposed not out of any choice of there own but out of the specific ways in which they were created.

It's a tragedy, not a conspiracy where one is gonna end up the Big Bad.

If anything I imagine Endwalker ends with both of them sacrificing themselves for the star to help end the "Sound" because despite all there differences they still have the same fundamental goal.

Basically two imperfect but not evil gods is wayyyy more compelling to me then just flipping a switch and saying "Haha good god bad......again."

+1 for that. Its just like how when we saw Thordan in the trailers we kinda already assumed that he would be a evil guy because of course the pope in the fantasy setting has to be that.
I would also be fully behind your idea for an ending on both of them. Instead of "haha crystal mum is evil too" I would be fine if they are both flawed thanks to their creation but that they both will save our world at the end. It imo would also make much more sense that they destroy themselves instead of us somehow having the power to beat these powerful primals. (And way better than having Zenos consume one of them too...that guy should be the one standing no chance before such old beings..)

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

That makes sense. After all it was Emet who said that they are something like our primals. I really wonder if the tempering with Zodiark either only happened because the summoners wanted to be controlled in some ways (because their magic was running wild) or if it was the huge amount of aether needed to summon him that did it. After all we know that even someone with the echo can lose control of a primal (I am looking at you Ryne). And since most current primals are called forth through the teachings of the Ascians they maybe just created summonings which can only be done with tempering on top of that.

Hydealyn had way less people to summon or fuel her. (Maybe even only those original summoners) What if that makes it so that they could resist it? And because she was much weaker she needed the power of sundering to even be able to try at all?

I also wonder if Zodiark or Hydealyn even count as active right now? Other primals always need huge amount of aether that they take from the land to be able to exist. Hydealyn alone should have kinda destroyed the star by now if she really needed aether all the time, the same with Zodiark when he was active. (They only talked about new sacrifices to get old ones back not to keep Zodiark "alive") What if those two simply can exist without hurting the land because the aether that the Ancients used was so massive that they are using this? What if her silence is her simply being so weak because she truly just used up most of the fuel that was given to her at the time of creation and she does not want to take from the world?

[Vyrerus]

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

We can hit both of them really hard with our swords, and they will fall!

[YianKutku]

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

That might depend on how old Alexander actually is.

It's probably one of those things we're not supposed to compare too closely, since we've fought the time-warping Alexander and the reality-hopping Omega, and the whole Shadowbringers story implies that in the future, mortals like us will be able to reverse-engineer both of those (plus the Crystal Tower) enough to surpass them individually.

So Hydaelyn and Zodiark are starting to feel like they might not be so mysterious in type, even if they're vastly more powerful in degree. But that's not what the story is trying to be, so I figure we have to kind of fudge around with stated capabilities a bit to maintain that sense of escalation. (Personally, as I've mentioned before, I don't think the escalation is necessary, but that's a whole other conversation.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

This is something that a lot of people need to understand i feel. I agree with you and there’s a lot of signs in the story pointing toward this conclusion. Like yes they’re both primals, but that’s really where the similarities end. There’s a big difference in scale of let’s say Lakshmi and then Zodiark or Hydaelyn.

[RyuDragnier]

To be fair, Hydaelyn's purpose stated by Venat and followers is that Zodiark only extends the time till the end days and Hydaelyn needs to be summoned as a permeant solution to the end days. They then go on to show that Venat has to specifically be the heart to get the result they want. Granted we need more of a justification from Venat and company, but this doesn't necessary prove that Hydaelyn's only purpose is to keep Zodiark in check but more her purpose is to stop the end of the world.

Furthermore, the cave paintings from Shadowbringers at the end of Qitana Ravel also show that we are missing an event because there is a panel where Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just together--like they were balanced--then the next panel follows to their fight. If we are to assume that Hydaelyn was summoned for the only purpose of sundering Zodiark then why would this panel be here?

Lastly, there is another panel in Rak'tika Greatwood in the first set of cave paintings looked at by the WOL and Y'shtola near the Children of the Everlasting Dark. Three panels there show Ardbert and party saving the first, the rise of the Ronkan Empire, and another event involving a bright light or a crystal--which may also depict something else involving Hydaelyn.

If Zodiark mostly invokes Astral Will of the Planet and the ancients were full aware of the need for balance, Hydaelyn may have been summoned as the Umbral Will of the Planet to help balance him out. The hopes may have been that instead of one voice making all the decisions, there would be two different voices that could reach compromise much like how the Amaurotine people did through their various verbal debates, leading to a better result. However, something happened that led to the fight between the two, because there's no way both Elidibus and Venat would just seek to fight when both come from the very civilization that sought debate to solve problems.

She says that "Primordial forces will strive to achieve equilibrium" so I guess no matter what the first was always much more turned towards the light. Which begs the question on what will happen with the first in the future? The 13th shard is still in a bad shape....if these strange forces still stive to equilibirium wouldnt they again turn the first towards the light?

I don't think so. The 13th still has platforms and areas not completely Astral as shown by the World of Darkness raid. Similarly the 1st still has areas not completely Umbral. With the team on the 1st trying to fix the 13th, equilibrium seems to be on its way already.

[KageTokage]

I didn't spot them after I had initially finished the Werlyt storyline, but those Au Ra kids in Terncliff playing hide and seek do eventually reappear and find a fourth child.

...Except it seems they actually are the spirits of the departed orphans as the one resembling Alphonse remarks that his sister is with Father when asked where she's hiding, but after the other three leave, he turns towards where Allie and Gaius are standing and says she'll come play with them again much later.

I hope they keep putting more subtle little events like in future areas.

EDIT: Apparently, the kids only appear in the daytime. which would explain why I didn't see them.