Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

[Theodric]

On Hydaelyn:

I guess it ties in well with what I stated earlier in regards to Tempering. There's a handful of posters who seem to have convinced themselves that Hydaelyn could not possibly be anything other than the 'Benevolent Mother' that they choose to view Hydaelyn as even after Hydaelyn has been revealed to be a Primal. It could go either way, though I don't think it'd be a mistake or 'bad storytelling' for Hydaelyn to turn out to essentially be a threat, either directly or indirectly.

At the end of the day, Hydaelyn is the reason why the original world ended up being Sundered. She needs to answer for that and Hydaelyn's desire to try and eliminate the Ascians and prevent the truth of the world from coming to light is very much at odds with the promise made to Emet-Selch in regards to remembering his people and honouring what once was.

As many here are quick to remind everybody, FFXIV is a classic JRPG that fully embraces some pretty stereotypical tropes. With that in mind, it may very well choose to go in the direction where the supposedly 'benevolent' deity is anything but. Putting aside the simple fact that many Hydaelyn enthusiasts were falsely making Zodiark out to be some sort of blood god upon the reveal of Amaurot, if the intention is for expectations to be subverted then as far as I'm concerned it'd be inherently more interesting for Zodiark to turn out to be the truly benevolent figure out of the two Elder Primals.

We'll see how things go, but as ever I urge everybody to keep an open mind!

[Lauront]

I think that

she may not have been aware she could before now. When she came out of the Lifestream, she never met with any of the Tempered. I believe she met with only the Vath who were not part of the hive mind and the Goblins (who were not tempered by Alexander), but never met the Vanu, and was out of commission for almost the entirety of SB so she never met with the Tempered Ananta. In fact, this may be her first time seeing Tempered in years.

Much as I agree with the auracite theory...

... as their likely power source, it is worth remembering these can be (re)charged, something we know from the very Crystal Tower itself, and she is surrounded by aether, irrespective of whether we think she chooses not to draw on it. As I've said, I don't think it's as simple as she's evil (nor do they generally present things in such black/white terms), but they've left room open to 1) separate the controller/host from the Primal, which is an easy way to attribute her statements about the world's history to misconceptions and 2) it's entirely possible her group of summoners was deceived by some third party... i.e. the very one now setting in motion the Final Days 2.0. While a waning crystal is certainly a probable explanation for the silence, they have enough room for it not to be the only good explanation.

[RyuDragnier]

On Hydaelyn:

I guess it ties in well with what I stated earlier in regards to Tempering. There's a handful of posters who seem to have convinced themselves that Hydaelyn could not possibly be anything other than the 'Benevolent Mother' that they choose to view Hydaelyn as even after Hydaelyn has been revealed to be a Primal. It could go either way, though I don't think it'd be a mistake or 'bad storytelling' for Hydaelyn to turn out to essentially be a threat, either directly or indirectly.

At the end of the day, Hydaelyn is the reason why the original world ended up being Sundered. She needs to answer for that and Hydaelyn's desire to try and eliminate the Ascians and prevent the truth of the world from coming to light is very much at odds with the promise made to Emet-Selch in regards to remembering his people and honouring what once was.

As many here are quick to remind everybody, FFXIV is a classic JRPG that fully embraces some pretty stereotypical tropes. With that in mind, it may very well choose to go in the direction where the supposedly 'benevolent' deity is anything but. Putting aside the simple fact that many Hydaelyn enthusiasts were falsely making Zodiark out to be some sort of blood god upon the reveal of Amaurot, if the intention is for expectations to be subverted then as far as I'm concerned it'd be inherently more interesting for Zodiark to turn out to be the truly benevolent figure out of the two Elder Primals.

We'll see how things go, but as ever I urge everybody to keep an open mind!

On Zodiark:

I have a feeling Zodiark, should it have a mind of its own, has been heavily conflicted from the start. It's very likely it wanted the new life to grow and be happy, but also wanted the same for the old life. It could just have an innocent mindset of "I just want to save everybody and for them to be happy!" Considering we know that Elidibus was a child at the time of his sacrifice, if his mind was made the template for Zodiark's personality as a primal...then it's likely a very innocent tragic figure. This may change how we view Hydaelyn...or may be part of what influenced her to Sunder instead. If Zodiark could not control its own power or was causing issues with the planet's balance without realizing it (again, this goes if it has an innocent mind), then the Sundering may also have been an act to protect Zodiark from hurting itself. Though this is all Wild Mass Guessing, it gives some serious food for thought. But we'll find out for certain at 5.55 at the earliest on her mindset for it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

On Zodiark:

I have a feeling Zodiark, should it have a mind of its own, has been heavily conflicted from the start. It's very likely it wanted the new life to grow and be happy, but also wanted the same for the old life. It could just have an innocent mindset of "I just want to save everybody and for them to be happy!" Considering we know that Elidibus was a child at the time of his sacrifice, if his mind was made the template for Zodiark's personality as a primal...then it's likely a very innocent tragic figure. This may change how we view Hydaelyn...or may be part of what influenced her to Sunder instead. If Zodiark could not control its own power or was causing issues with the planet's balance without realizing it (again, this goes if it has an innocent mind), then the Sundering may also have been an act to protect Zodiark from hurting itself. Though this is all Wild Mass Guessing, it gives some serious food for thought. But we'll find out for certain at 5.55 at the earliest on her mindset for it.

Just a correction.

Elidibus was NOT a child. So many people get this wrong even though they've explained it. Age-wise he was basically around Graha's age(early twenties). They dont mention anything about Zodiark causing issues with the planet's balance. That's something the Ancients wouldve 100% been aware of.

[Lauront]

On Elidibus...

He wasn't a child. That is an interpretation some fans have owing to his form following SoS, but when you compare how he is referred to across languages from his short story, the overall meaning is more consistent with an age between late teens to young adult. I do think Zodiark inherited his persona and desire to save the world and therefore has that impulse of heroism in him, but again the thing to consider here is her stated intention, as per the cutscene in Anamnesis Anyder, is to check his power (presumably as a means to cease the return of ancients in Zodiark and let the "new life" - whatever it was - inherit the world.) Not necessarily to split up the world into a bunch of shards. Then you have this from Emet-Selch in the French version:

Emet-Selch : En tant que garde-fou de Zordiarche, Hydaelyn était dotée de capacités tout bonnement extraordinaires.
= “As Zodiark’s safeguard, Hydaelyn was endowed with simply extraordinary capabilities.”

Emet-Selch : Des attaques qui, en plus de toucher l'enveloppe matérielle de l'adversaire, tranchaient jusqu'à son essence même... C'était du jamais vu.
= “Attacks that, in addition to touching the material envelope (body) of the opponent, cut to its very essence… It was never seen before.”

"Never seen before" in this context can easily mean "not fully understood". Although she and her posse claimed Zodiark was not a solution, a possibility to consider is that this entire conflict wedged between the groups was instigated by another party, feeding off concerns, justified or not, about Zodiarks' power. Telophoroi as a term certainly sounds like something rooted in the ancient world. It's easy to conceive of the odd immortal life form wishing to end its existence and, with it, the Lifestream/Underworld that would return its soul in due course to the living... possibly trucking with powers beyond the ken of the ancients to achieve this.

If Zodiark stayed the original incident, it stands to reason that he could prevent it again, and so needed to be removed. We don't know if Venat intended the Sundering, or thought the power would just weaken Zodiark enough for him to not outright destroy her as they established a co-existence. Either way, on this basis a possible outcome by whichever third party instigated the conflict is that it'd destroy both Zodiark and the world with it... but instead, it sundered them both. The only wrinkle here is Elidibus's claim at 5.0's epilogue that she and her summoners both intended for this truth of the world not to be known to the sundered life forms, which does suggest the sundering was intended, but on the other hand their suggestion to the Convocation may have been to phase out the ancients and he may be interpreting it in that light. Admittedly it's all (varyingly wild) guessing on my part too, but it would not be the first war in the setting started through a misunderstanding instigated by a third party, that dragged on and on...with Azem distanced from both Primals (we can debate as to why they ignored her group's solicitations, but it could indicate she was not seen as much of an improvement over the situation either...), and Hades evidently "out there" in some sense, I think they will be the answer to the 5.0 epilogue question, of who will end this war. After all, Venat never maligned the Convocation's intentions but stated they too only wished for what was best for the star. Given how Zodiark, having delivered on abating the Final Days, had another primal sicced onto him after Elidibus had departed to go mediate the dispute, I imagine there is much residual rage and confusion in him.

[RyuDragnier]

Just a correction.

Elidibus was NOT a child. So many people get this wrong even though they've explained it. Age-wise he was basically around Graha's age(early twenties). They dont mention anything about Zodiark causing issues with the planet's balance. That's something the Ancients wouldve 100% been aware of.

That's where I beg to differ.

The Ancients, at least in Amaurot, relied so heavily on the Convocation to make decisions that they seemed to go with whatever they decided, and the Convocation were Tempered after summoning Zodiark. They weren't going to believe their own god was causing problems, and anybody following them would think their logic sound, since they WERE the brightest of them all.

[MoofiaBossVal]

On Zodiark:

I have a feeling Zodiark, should it have a mind of its own, has been heavily conflicted from the start. It's very likely it wanted the new life to grow and be happy, but also wanted the same for the old life. It could just have an innocent mindset of "I just want to save everybody and for them to be happy!" Considering we know that Elidibus was a child at the time of his sacrifice, if his mind was made the template for Zodiark's personality as a primal...then it's likely a very innocent tragic figure. This may change how we view Hydaelyn...or may be part of what influenced her to Sunder instead. If Zodiark could not control its own power or was causing issues with the planet's balance without realizing it (again, this goes if it has an innocent mind), then the Sundering may also have been an act to protect Zodiark from hurting itself. Though this is all Wild Mass Guessing, it gives some serious food for thought. But we'll find out for certain at 5.55 at the earliest on her mindset for it.

Yeah, I've been thinking something similar

On Zodiark

Friendly reminder that we've never gotten Zodiark's perspective on the situation. We don't know if he would actually want to go along with the Ascian's plans and sacrifice the inhabitants of the planet.

Zodiark was summoned to save the planet. It was the ASCIANS who came up with the idea that they were going to sacrifice the new life, but we have no indication that they told Zodiark about this or if he was in on the plan. All we know is that Zodiark found out that there was a dispute, and regurgitated Elidibus or created a projection/familiar based on Elidibus and sent this new Elidibus to go find out what was up and resolve it. Then, what happened next as far as Zodiark as aware, a second Primal came out of nowhere and stomped him and shattered him into 14 pieces. He has been unconscious ever since.

The new Elidibus came to share the same feelings as the other Ascians, as he hung out with the surviving Amaurotians, escaped the Sundering, and felt a longing for them, but this new Elidibus is a separate individual from the being known as Zodiark.

If Zodiark were to be revived during Endwalker (which seems to be the case, given the Amano art of Hydaelyn vs Zodiark, but that might be representative of their past fight), I'd imagine that Zodiark would be reflexively hostile towards Hydaelyn at first for beating him up, but I don't think he'd be going after the inhabitants of the planet trying to kill them. In fact, maybe he'd be horrified if the Scions or Hydaelyn sat him down and told them what the Ascians were planning and what they had done. Then again, Zodiark might not ever be revived; his power might just be absorbed by Zenos, or he might get controlled by Zenos.

[Lauront]

It's possible that...

The very plan to revive the sacrificed ancients was conceived after seeing Elidibus return from Zodiark. While his exact nature is a little nebulous (save for the fact that he bears the traits of a Primal, like his power varying based on faith in him, and imprints of Zodiark's imperative), it is clear that his own soul was still there deep down (and remains in the Crystal Tower.) Hearing the disagreement that raged on is what prompted Elidibus to emerge, but it's not specified what exactly the disagreement concerned at that point, beyond stating the Convocation had lost some of its cohesion. Bearing in mind that this is a civilisation that had deeply seated notions of duty and of sacrifice for the achievement of a greater good, Elidibus's emergence may have served as a proof of concept of it being possible to revive the sacrificed ancients. Venat's faction, in all honesty, did not seem particularly caustic about the sacrifices per se, and acknowledged that the Convocation merely did what it though was best for the star's future (indicating it was at least parsable in their moral framework - it's vague what the "new life" was, anyway, but again the concept of duty/obligation to those who enabled the star to even continue existing could be the overriding factor, coupled with it being a quicker way to get things back on track.)

Their main rationale was to provide a check on Zodiark's power, to avoid their doom. So it looks to me like the issue was less so the sacrifice itself, and more the question of what it'd achieve - in this case, the return of the ancients and resumption of thing as they were, I suppose, coupled with fear of Zodiark's great power. Nonetheless, you're right that this plan originated with the Convocation - some may attribute it to tempering etc., and therefore to be at Zodiark's direction; while I may have been more amenable to such a possibility before, knowing what we do of Elidibus and that he was the Primal's heart, has left me less convinced of that. Especially as Elidibus gives you his account of what led him to emerge from Zodiark. It bears the hints, IMO, of a conflict exploited by someone who wanted Venat's faction and the Convocation to resort to violent conflict. Two well intentioned factions pushed into conflict, and then an out of control war between two primals, one of which at the least was without its 'driver'/heart. Even if Elidibus was able to regain control over him (as with Zenos assuming control of Shinryu), once they were locked in battle, that may have become impossible. I don't think Zodiark would exactly be impressed by the sundered state of the world that he was brought in to protect, but I agree that he may not be automatically hostile towards the MC, per se, and that the rage may stem instead from what was done to him... especially depending on how things progress with the Blessing itself, and the trailer's narrator...

[Slatersev]

Just wanna say, in JRPG's "Supposedly benevolent god is actually super evil" isn't really a fresh or unique direction, its actually incredibly common.

And I think people taking "sides" between the two based on the idea that one has to be malevolent is sorta missing the point. They were both created to save the planet. The definition about what "saving" it meant was just different between there summoners.

I think the actual direction there story is heading isn't "This one is the baddie go kill it" its, that the fact that two being both born of good intentions ended up being diametrically opposed not out of any choice of there own but out of the specific ways in which they were created.

It's a tragedy, not a conspiracy where one is gonna end up the Big Bad.

If anything I imagine Endwalker ends with both of them sacrificing themselves for the star to help end the "Sound" because despite all there differences they still have the same fundamental goal.

Basically two imperfect but not evil gods is wayyyy more compelling to me then just flipping a switch and saying "Haha good god bad......again."

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's where I beg to differ.

The Ancients, at least in Amaurot, relied so heavily on the Convocation to make decisions that they seemed to go with whatever they decided, and the Convocation were Tempered after summoning Zodiark. They weren't going to believe their own god was causing problems, and anybody following them would think their logic sound, since they WERE the brightest of them all.

The thing is though,

It's suspicious Azem didn't respond to their overtures. So that makes it a bit doubtful. The other thing is, people are so quick to assume something is wrong with Zodiark but, what about Hydaelyn then who is also in the same classification. If Zodiark's summoning was deemed a bad idea and if he was causing problems, why would Venat's faction then summon another primal like him who also tempers? Yes they were tempered but you have to keep in mind Zodiark's purpose and also the way the tempering works.