Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

Originally Posted by Theodric

On Hydaelyn:

We'll see how things go, but as ever I urge everybody to keep an open mind!

about your points

So now you want to make it so like we are "tempered" by her because we just want her to be good? We know that she is a primal but that does not mean that she is bad. Primals are after all acting according to their summoners wishes. If their wishes were to save the newborn lives and to have them live their lifes than how is that bad?

I want her to be good because I am tired of these FF tropes that every single god like being needs to be bad and destroyed. I also have a hard time seeing her as bad when we know that Answers is partly from her view.

Also we still dont know if its her reason alone or if the summoners intented her to do that. What if we find out that it was necessary to truly take care of the sound? And how is it bad that she desires to take out the Ascians? We can still remember the ancient ones but also can see that the remaining Ascians are a threat that needs to be stopped otherwise everything we know and love will be gone. She also does not prevent the truth from coming to light or did she ever stopped us from searching for it? Also since she is a primal it makes sense that she was made to believe certain things or that she does not know better. That does not make her bad it just means that we cant 100% trust what she says to be true, just like how we could not trust Emets rose colored glasses about his own people. But not being able to take every of her words as the truth does not at the same time mean that she is a bad guy either.

And yes there are stereotypes and for FF it kinda happens quite a bit that the Gods turn out to be horrible. So for me it would be much more a breath of fresh air if she was just good with her own kind of flaws.

But yes I do keep an open mind, If they do go into that direction I personally might not like it because right now I just dont see those points that make her so shady. It would just be nice to not always be called out as somehow close-minded or "tempered"...no we simply just want the story to go a certain way, just like I am sure that you have probably not wanted for Garlemald to be going in the direction its now. A nation purely built to do evil and create calamities that is now lying in absolute destruction while the people of Garlemald are tempered and used as a way to fulfill Fandaniels and Zenos wishes

Originally Posted by Slatersev

Just wanna say, in JRPG's "Supposedly benevolent god is actually super evil" isn't really a fresh or unique direction, its actually incredibly common.

And I think people taking "sides" between the two based on the idea that one has to be malevolent is sorta missing the point. They were both created to save the planet. The definition about what "saving" it meant was just different between there summoners.

I think the actual direction there story is heading isn't "This one is the baddie go kill it" its, that the fact that two being both born of good intentions ended up being diametrically opposed not out of any choice of there own but out of the specific ways in which they were created.

It's a tragedy, not a conspiracy where one is gonna end up the Big Bad.

If anything I imagine Endwalker ends with both of them sacrificing themselves for the star to help end the "Sound" because despite all there differences they still have the same fundamental goal.

Basically two imperfect but not evil gods is wayyyy more compelling to me then just flipping a switch and saying "Haha good god bad......again."

+1 for that. Its just like how when we saw Thordan in the trailers we kinda already assumed that he would be a evil guy because of course the pope in the fantasy setting has to be that.
I would also be fully behind your idea for an ending on both of them. Instead of "haha crystal mum is evil too" I would be fine if they are both flawed thanks to their creation but that they both will save our world at the end. It imo would also make much more sense that they destroy themselves instead of us somehow having the power to beat these powerful primals. (And way better than having Zenos consume one of them too...that guy should be the one standing no chance before such old beings..)

Originally Posted by Jandor

I think that Zodiark and say, Ifrit for example, are both primals in the same way that a space shuttle and a bicycle are both vehicles. They share some basics in common, they're both man-made devices for getting someone from point-A to point-B for example, but beyond that they're not very comparable.

I have to wonder how much of what we have learned from dealing with modern primals will even be applicable to the pair of several millennia old reality warping gods at the heart of the story.

That makes sense. After all it was Emet who said that they are something like our primals. I really wonder if the tempering with Zodiark either only happened because the summoners wanted to be controlled in some ways (because their magic was running wild) or if it was the huge amount of aether needed to summon him that did it. After all we know that even someone with the echo can lose control of a primal (I am looking at you Ryne). And since most current primals are called forth through the teachings of the Ascians they maybe just created summonings which can only be done with tempering on top of that.

Hydealyn had way less people to summon or fuel her. (Maybe even only those original summoners) What if that makes it so that they could resist it? And because she was much weaker she needed the power of sundering to even be able to try at all?

I also wonder if Zodiark or Hydealyn even count as active right now? Other primals always need huge amount of aether that they take from the land to be able to exist. Hydealyn alone should have kinda destroyed the star by now if she really needed aether all the time, the same with Zodiark when he was active. (They only talked about new sacrifices to get old ones back not to keep Zodiark "alive") What if those two simply can exist without hurting the land because the aether that the Ancients used was so massive that they are using this? What if her silence is her simply being so weak because she truly just used up most of the fuel that was given to her at the time of creation and she does not want to take from the world?

On Elidibus...

He wasn't a child. That is an interpretation some fans have owing to his form following SoS, but when you compare how he is referred to across languages from his short story, the overall meaning is more consistent with an age between late teens to young adult. I do think Zodiark inherited his persona and desire to save the world and therefore has that impulse of heroism in him, but again the thing to consider here is her stated intention, as per the cutscene in Anamnesis Anyder, is to check his power (presumably as a means to cease the return of ancients in Zodiark and let the "new life" - whatever it was - inherit the world.) Not necessarily to split up the world into a bunch of shards. Then you have this from Emet-Selch in the French version:

Emet-Selch : En tant que garde-fou de Zordiarche, Hydaelyn était dotée de capacités tout bonnement extraordinaires.
= “As Zodiark’s safeguard, Hydaelyn was endowed with simply extraordinary capabilities.”

Emet-Selch : Des attaques qui, en plus de toucher l'enveloppe matérielle de l'adversaire, tranchaient jusqu'à son essence même... C'était du jamais vu.
= “Attacks that, in addition to touching the material envelope (body) of the opponent, cut to its very essence… It was never seen before.”

"Never seen before" in this context can easily mean "not fully understood". Although she and her posse claimed Zodiark was not a solution, a possibility to consider is that this entire conflict wedged between the groups was instigated by another party, feeding off concerns, justified or not, about Zodiarks' power. Telophoroi as a term certainly sounds like something rooted in the ancient world. It's easy to conceive of the odd immortal life form wishing to end its existence and, with it, the Lifestream/Underworld that would return its soul in due course to the living... possibly trucking with powers beyond the ken of the ancients to achieve this.

If Zodiark stayed the original incident, it stands to reason that he could prevent it again, and so needed to be removed. We don't know if Venat intended the Sundering, or thought the power would just weaken Zodiark enough for him to not outright destroy her as they established a co-existence. Either way, on this basis a possible outcome by whichever third party instigated the conflict is that it'd destroy both Zodiark and the world with it... but instead, it sundered them both. The only wrinkle here is Elidibus's claim at 5.0's epilogue that she and her summoners both intended for this truth of the world not to be known to the sundered life forms, which does suggest the sundering was intended, but on the other hand their suggestion to the Convocation may have been to phase out the ancients and he may be interpreting it in that light. Admittedly it's all (varyingly wild) guessing on my part too, but it would not be the first war in the setting started through a misunderstanding instigated by a third party, that dragged on and on...with Azem distanced from both Primals (we can debate as to why they ignored her group's solicitations, but it could indicate she was not seen as much of an improvement over the situation either...), and Hades evidently "out there" in some sense, I think they will be the answer to the 5.0 epilogue question, of who will end this war. After all, Venat never maligned the Convocation's intentions but stated they too only wished for what was best for the star. Given how Zodiark, having delivered on abating the Final Days, had another primal sicced onto him after Elidibus had departed to go mediate the dispute, I imagine there is much residual rage and confusion in him.

It's possible that...

The very plan to revive the sacrificed ancients was conceived after seeing Elidibus return from Zodiark. While his exact nature is a little nebulous (save for the fact that he bears the traits of a Primal, like his power varying based on faith in him, and imprints of Zodiark's imperative), it is clear that his own soul was still there deep down (and remains in the Crystal Tower.) Hearing the disagreement that raged on is what prompted Elidibus to emerge, but it's not specified what exactly the disagreement concerned at that point, beyond stating the Convocation had lost some of its cohesion. Bearing in mind that this is a civilisation that had deeply seated notions of duty and of sacrifice for the achievement of a greater good, Elidibus's emergence may have served as a proof of concept of it being possible to revive the sacrificed ancients. Venat's faction, in all honesty, did not seem particularly caustic about the sacrifices per se, and acknowledged that the Convocation merely did what it though was best for the star's future (indicating it was at least parsable in their moral framework - it's vague what the "new life" was, anyway, but again the concept of duty/obligation to those who enabled the star to even continue existing could be the overriding factor, coupled with it being a quicker way to get things back on track.)

Their main rationale was to provide a check on Zodiark's power, to avoid their doom. So it looks to me like the issue was less so the sacrifice itself, and more the question of what it'd achieve - in this case, the return of the ancients and resumption of thing as they were, I suppose, coupled with fear of Zodiark's great power. Nonetheless, you're right that this plan originated with the Convocation - some may attribute it to tempering etc., and therefore to be at Zodiark's direction; while I may have been more amenable to such a possibility before, knowing what we do of Elidibus and that he was the Primal's heart, has left me less convinced of that. Especially as Elidibus gives you his account of what led him to emerge from Zodiark. It bears the hints, IMO, of a conflict exploited by someone who wanted Venat's faction and the Convocation to resort to violent conflict. Two well intentioned factions pushed into conflict, and then an out of control war between two primals, one of which at the least was without its 'driver'/heart. Even if Elidibus was able to regain control over him (as with Zenos assuming control of Shinryu), once they were locked in battle, that may have become impossible. I don't think Zodiark would exactly be impressed by the sundered state of the world that he was brought in to protect, but I agree that he may not be automatically hostile towards the MC, per se, and that the rage may stem instead from what was done to him... especially depending on how things progress with the Blessing itself, and the trailer's narrator...

Originally Posted by Lauront

snip

Actually it was conceived before Elidibus came back

That's the sort of person Elidibus was; eager to fulfill his duty, he also respected and admired the Convocation more than any other. To many of us, he was as a younger brother of sorts. And when it became clear that he was the most suitable candidate for Zodiark's heart, it mattered not how strong our resolve... There was none among us who did not waver.

Could there have been any greater shock, then, than our subsequent reunion?

This was soon after Zodiark became the will of the star, and our Final Days were averted. The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end.

At once, we saw it, shimmering. It poured out of Zodiark's breast, and resolved into the shape of a man. As he looked us over─mouths agape, no doubt─he gave what passed for an earnest smile.


"Fear...not... You will make...the right choice. And I will see it through."

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../sidestory_07/

He came back as he himself said so to reconcile the two arguing factions as it was part of his job as Elidibus.

We know that Hydaelyn has tempered before. The cave paintings portraying her and Zodiark had smaller figures underneath them, sporting matching colors. We could get obtuse about it, and say that merely represented their factions, but I doubt that the Hydaelyn faction figured out how to summon a primal that doesn't temper on summoning, using the same summoning technique as the Convocation.

A line of thought I had, after Y'shtola and Krile aired their theory

At the end of 2.0 we see a flash of the crystals that represent the Source and the Shards. At first they are blue and bright, but then there is a flash, and they all turn purple and dark. Every other time we've seen them, they're portrayed in the blue. Looking back at that scene now, it seems to me as though the reverse could also be true. That is to say, we've never heard Zodiark talk to anyone. We assume this is because he is Sundered. and now with SHB, we also assume this is because he could be mindless from missing his heart. However, could it be that Hydaelyn can't take the time to talk to us, because she has to work actively to keep him mute/asleep? I for one, want to know, why is it that Hydaelyn can talk to everyone along all of the Shards and Source, but Zodiark never could.