DPS who pull mobs

[Zfz]

Depends on the specific pull but if the tank is standing literally on the wall (hence the name "wall to wall pull") you're not pre positioning ahead of them. Also if you and another player are in lock step or you're a bit ahead of them on your client, chances are they're ahead of you per the server due to the 200ms built in delay.

Which is why I said way earlier that "unless the tank is literally pulling to the wall". But most times there's no point to do that, not even to make sure the DPS aren't pre-positioned in front of you, because it doesn't really matter.

As to network delay, well, there's nothing to prove that I'm showing up in front or behind. But that's not the point. The point is, unless the tank literally pulls to the wall, it's often trivial for me to be half a screen ahead, meaning so far ahead network delay isn't going to make a difference, and I do the zigzag to put me back behind the tank.

But even that is not the point. As I said, the point is, use Arm's Length. Arguing about "oh no you can't out run tanks" or "tanks who get outrun by DPS are just bad tanks" or all that is all moot. Just use Arm's Length if you have it and find yourself pulling instead of the tank, that's what this thread is about.

[Nethereal]

I wonder how this thread has somehow avoided the "You're the reason people don't want to tank!" mob.

[Alaray]

I have played this game from the beta and have to disagree. This whole wall to wall pull is a not a given nor was it intended. In fact, when players first began finding ways of pushing packs further, SE put in gates and boundaries so that packs and trash had to handled. So to say that if you not doing this a certain way, then you are griefing is just baloney. There are plenty of reasons for doing pack and wall to wall. It is a team game and that does not work for everyone.

On the subject of who pulls, if everyone did their own job then the dungeon would be smooth regardless. DPS should not pull mobs that is a tank’s job.

For the record, I do not play a tank and I do not mind big pulls as a healer or as a DPS. I do mind when people do not play their roles.

I've played since beta, too - it's not a point of credibility, honestly.

Nowadays with how dungeons are designed, there's no drawback to not going wall to wall (especially in Expert Roulette, since those dungeons hit way weaker than leveling dungeons and there's no real variability in gear -- you have a minimum to hit and that minimum is more than enough). Doesn't matter if the devs intended it or not, it's become a general expectation because (ultimately speaking) it's easy to do and single pulls are more of a strain on party resources. There's no real, conceivable, reason why one would not do it -- except for feeling nervous to try it out, or if other members of your party are worse (ie: DPS doing single target rotations in AoE, a "I only Heal" healer). And the best solution to nerves is, just, honestly communicating that and seeing if the party would like you to try anyway, while understanding you might mess up. But outside of initial anxiety, or not understanding how the game operates, I can't think of a reason to not perform the basic function of your role in the content (and, no, "I'm eating food while watching Netflix" isn't a reason).

In leveling dungeons gear becomes a component, but usually, even tanks in really bad gear can do a large pull if they utilize their CD's (which I'll request anyway if I notice they aren't using them -- and, I mean, I kept a no-CD paladin alive in harder hitting leveling dungeons who pulled wall to wall wearing Scaevan in Abania intermixed with some lesser items). That said, I've never had someone (sprout or returner, or mentor crown-wearing player) say "that sucked" after coaching them through what they're supposed to be doing when they pull multiple packs. Most people tend to be surprised it was fun, and if I'm healing that run, I'll put the responsibility of a wipe on myself instead of them to ease the anxiety of making a mistake. Sometimes a new tank trying it out will die, that's okay. It's a game, let people learn and here or there and sometimes they will die while learning.

The contentious point of "single pulls is fine" is okay in games where dungeons are actually difficult, or require some thought in what to pull/how to pull it/where to pull it/what the pack's mechanics are and what the current resources in the party are. But in this game, dungeons don't really do anything. They're a hallway with a couple packs of mobs that generally pose very little actual threat, with maybe a pack or two every other dungeon having 1 mob that will do a tankbuster (which the tank should already be mitigating by using CD's in these pulls, but a WHM Holy or a DPS paying attention, or even a tank paying attention, can usually stun those casts).

It's not like sac-runs in Aurum Vale, there's no secret tech, there's no higher thought process going on other than: hit a cooldown. When it expires, hit another cooldown. Which is the base expectation I have of any tank since that's literally what they're there to do (that, and contributing to damage). I won't be a dick about it, but if I put out "We should pull more packs of mobs, and it'll be fine so long as you rotate through your Cooldowns" and am met with a passive aggressive "I decide the pace of the run" or whatever, I'll initiate a votekick, or I'll just dip. I've hit my personal limit on passive aggressiveness in DF, I'm not really willing to babysit an adult high schooler.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

First off, intentionally being bad at your role does not help you at all

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.

It's not a big deal. At least, not as big of a deal as intentionally griefing for a petty grievance. I mean, I pull most of my dungeons on healer and all you'd really do by turning off stance is make me use a couple gcd's to live (which, more of a cut to dungeon mobs hitting for basically nothing while being made out of paper). It's not really the "Learned Your Lesson?" moment you think it is.

Your opinion is valid and noted, but If Im Tank, let me Tank. Dont tank for me then call me bad when you wont let me do my job and act like your in a rush because you have a date waiting or something XD.

Ah, nothing like being a petty tank.

Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

[LianaThorne]

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

I think its pretty messed up to call somebody out for griefing just because they dont pull wall-to-wall, especially if they are new and trying to learn.
Not every tank if gonna be a lighting fast pro, just like not every healer is gonna be good enough to keep up.

[Nethereal]

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

The line in the sand is this phrase: If everyone isn't dead you're not pulling enough.

Once you die and establish the pull amount you limit it to that.

[LianaThorne]

The line in the sand is this phrase: If everyone isn't dead you're not pulling enough.

Once you die and establish the pull amount you limit it to that.

But that doesn't speak for new players who don't know that. It's still making the assumption that they should know that right off the bat, first pull. It doesn't teach you in the Hall of the Novice to pull wall to wall every time (literally the exercises put you against 3 at max, hence why a lot of new people pull 1 pack of 3 at a time) and most people's first real tanking experience is Satasha (which doesn't tell you to pull wall to wall either). I'm asking about what should be done in those situations or if it's just a blanket: everyone is griefing no matter what and new people don't exist/should have some hivemind knowledge absorbed in from the void on Day 1.

Personally in every dungeon I've been in where a tank was pulling pack by pack, no one gave a shit except for maybe once. If people did give a shit they didn't say it and I'd be willing to put money down that the reason is because of how some people are afraid/anxious to correct people.

So, is this assumption on tanking/approval for other role to pull mobs coming from a vocal minority or is this a hidden majority that is valid in their expectations that's sitting on their issues? Which, if that's the case, isn't the fault of anyone other than the person not willing to talk and continuing to enable the incorrect tanking methods. Either way, it's pretty unfair to push the assumption of griefing on tanks that pull small because they could be new or not confident enough in their abilities yet to pull wall to wall. If this is something like a level 80 dungeon, fair enough, tanks should be more than comfortable enough by then to pull big and healers should be able to compensate for it. However, if this is like a 50 or under dungeon and the tank is new and clearly not up to snuff, some sort of respect should be given to let them get their feet on the ground rather than automatically pointing the finger that they just want to waste everyone's time or doing their job for them. People don't learn by being carried or having the experience they need taken up by someone else who wants to rush.

[Baxcel]

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

I don't need to ask a healer if they're cool with big pulls in Matoya's or Hero's. Why? Because they could literally be a third DPS and I'll be fine. It doesn't require high level play to do this, either. Just base knowledge of what you're doing. Which you learn by being taught, ideally, as a new player how to do that early on. Which is, again, why I tell new players to do a large pull and rotate through their cooldowns to extend the protection they provide for you. Or why I'll request a DPS who is only doing single target in an AoE pull, to AoE. Or why standing around on WHM only waiting to push "Cure II" is a hindrance to your party, because Holy stuns and essentially provides Hallowed Ground-level of mitigation since nothing can take any actions for a duration while you start doing it.

To intentionally slow down a run because someone doesn't want to really participate in the content isn't a playstyle. This is a team game, if you don't want to be part of a team, then run with trusts because AI teammates have no cares left to give.

And it's things like this as to why I will pull how I please.. i have a pocket healer and sometimes a DPS too so pulling more then I want will get you dead or vote removed if you continue to do so..

I would never have made this mentality of " you pull it you tank it" if not for DPS like you.

Back when I first started the game had a rude Red who kept doing that in a dungeon that was new to me and my healer.. we told them so before the barrier dropped.. we ask him to stop so we could enjoy the new dungeon.. we finished.. he told us we both sucked and left.. so I'll use my privileges as a tank to be the tank and set the pace.. if you dont like it you can return to your 30min+ wait time for a new dungeon or you can suck it up and understand that I play the class that keep your alive an let you have your wall to wall pulls

[Alaray]

And it's things like this as to why I will pull how I please.. i have a pocket healer and sometimes a DPS too so pulling more then I want will get you dead or vote removed if you continue to do so..

I would never have made this mentality of " you pull it you tank it" if not for DPS like you.

Back when I first started the game had a rude Red who kept doing that in a dungeon that was new to me and my healer.. we told them so before the barrier dropped.. we ask him to stop so we could enjoy the new dungeon.. we finished.. he told us we both sucked and left.. so I'll use my privileges as a tank to be the tank and set the pace.. if you dont like it you can return to your 30min+ wait time for a new dungeon or you can suck it up and understand that I play the class that keep your alive an let you have your wall to wall pulls

I'm a tank main and I've been primarily playing healer this patch.

Never once suggested I was okay with insulting other players/saying they suck in the instance -- my point was: intentionally slowing down a run at the expense of others when there is no viable reason to do so outside of specific circumstances (ie. New player/the rest of the group is not up to par) and then to grief someone in that party because they pulled a little extra is petulant and just as worthy of a vote dismiss. I'm really tired of this entire "coddle the tanks and healers" mentality that's become so popular, especially when it leads to bad information disseminating to newer players, or leads to random, holier-than thou superiority complex from people who don't care enough to even try.

Please grow up.