Fix Summoner Once and For All in 6.0 Please!

**Exodus-E** · 03-12-2021 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Anhra

From the way i see it, Squeenix should finally discard the Egi's for good and turn them all into demi-summons along with a job mechanic that allows the player to choose/manage between said summons (in which every demi-summon has their own, seperate resummon cooldown which should be, fairly long before reuse, maybe even like 5min CD each so that everytime you do summon, it feels really impactful).

That's extremely unlikely, since doing so would also remove Carbuncles as permanent pets, which would infuriate A LOT of people.
Also, it's far, far too late to do so from a story/lore standpoint.

Once again, the most practical/logical solution would be for them to continue adjusting them (especially their A.I. behavior), as well as implementing proper Egi glamours to be managed from a dedicated UI window (similar to how BLU's spellbook works).

**Karshan** · 03-12-2021 04:00 AM

Although I was an advocate of losing the egis to only have summons, I now more think of getting more summons but leaving the egis be for those who like it, since they don't seem to be adding another pet job that could take summoner's place on that matter anywhere soon.

But clearly I want more summon stuff, maybe have ED and Dots turned into summon themed support to mesh the whole kit back up into two main blocks : Egi support/oriented kit when Egis are there, Summon support/oriented kit when they are out as a "burst" phase.

And not a mess of 4 unlinked blocks as it is now.

My wishlist : (a bit of a revert)
- Consolidate Ruin : lose the ruination thing. Have ruin 4 just be ruin 3, same potency, instant cast, but more MP costly. For movement phases and weaving.
- ED : have it give 3 stacks of primal ether
- Egi Assault : have 3 different (and not two) skills, with one being the dot to maintain. Put them back as oGCD. Using one costs 1 of the primal ether stacks.
- Trances : consolidate & reduce duration (10 secs), and condition them to 3 primal ether used (the usage still counted in case of death).
- Trances way of working : like Phoenix, changes the theme of your spells. Lose the autos thing, have 2 oGCD proper to each summon (but button shared) to use during trance instead. Have only 1 finisher to account for reduced timer, a bit more powerful than a single current one but not to the level of 2 of them (maybe something like 1k potency). Have the finisher different according to summon.
- Add a 3rd Summon. Have each of the 3 sumon have a special effect (Phoenix is the regen, maybe have Bahamut be a devotion, and Alexander be a DoT ?)

You would have every 30 seconds spent as 20 seconds of Egi time, 10 seconds of trance. The Primal Summoned would depend on the Egi used. So you could you know time the regen of phoenix, have Bahamut every 1 out of 2 on the 60 seconds buff window...). You could cycle through all 3, or use the same all the time.

Variety, meshing, not too long ruin spam down time. Would require creativity for all those "themed" versions of oGCD, finishers, etc... but oh well, one can dream.

It's just a wishlist, by no means a perfect idea.

**Anhra** · 03-12-2021 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Exodus-E

That's extremely unlikely, since doing so would also remove Carbuncles as permanent pets, which would infuriate A LOT of people.
Also, it's far, far too late to do so from a story/lore standpoint.

Once again, the most practical/logical solution would be for them to continue adjusting them (especially their A.I. behavior), as well as implementing proper Egi glamours to be managed from a dedicated UI window (similar to how BLU's spellbook works).

Carbuncles could still be a thing for Scholar (as egiglamour for the fairy), since SCH seems to be tied closer to Arcanist, so it isn't that much of a deal. And if there is a Job that clearly would benefit the most out of Pet Controls, it is clearly Scholar with his Fairy.

Cutting SMN completely off from Arcanist is the only way to fix SMN once and for all, so that it can finally become it's own thing.

**Exodus-E** · 03-12-2021 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Anhra

Cutting SMN completely off from Arcanist is the only way to fix SMN once and for all, so that it can finally become it's own thing.

Or they could simply go back and "fix" Arcanist, so Summoner (and to a lesser extent, Scholar) gets fixed through it as well.
And once again, it's already way too late to separate them from a story/lore standpoint, which has been solid/consistent since ARR.

Also, you keep forgetting all the supplemental resources that rely on Summoner having Egis around (trailers, artwork, CG renders, encyclopaedia, etc.).

**Anhra** · 03-12-2021 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Or they could simply go back and "fix" Arcanist, so Summoner (and to a lesser extent, Scholar) gets fixed through it as well.
And once again, it's already way too late to separate them from a story/lore standpoint, which has been solid/consistent since ARR.

Also, you keep forgetting all the supplemental resources that rely on Summoner having Egis around (trailers, artwork, CG renders, encyclopaedia, etc.).

Squeenix doesn't care about the lore much when it comes to balancing jobs ( "glaring" straight at you, WHM and AST) as long as it kinda works out for them, and even if it did, it could easily be explained by simply saying that were capable of making demi-summons instead of egi-summons just because at this point of the game, we have been exposed to garuda/ifrits/titans aether for quite some time now over all those encounters we had (without falling into possession). Which would not only explain the WoL point and title as the strongest SMN, but also the fact why other certain NPCs can only summon egis.

Or they just rework the entire thing from scratch. Also, were disgussing gameplay here so supplemental ressources are the last thing on this planet which should stop us from getting a properly functioning job.

**Exodus-E** · 03-12-2021 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Anhra

Squeenix doesn't care about the lore much when it comes to balancing jobs ( "glaring" straight at you, WHM and AST) as long as it kinda works out for them

As far as I'm aware, WHM's and AST's lore are still consistent/intact.
They may have changed mechanically, but they still retain (most) of their toolkits as they were presented within their respective stories.

Also, about them "not caring about the lore" is a flat-out lie.
Else they wouldn't have justified them with supplemental material such as encyclopaedia entries or "Tales of" stories.

Originally Posted by Anhra

and even if it did, it could easily be explained by simply saying that were capable of making demi-summons instead of egi-summons just because at this point of the game, we have been exposed to garuda/ifrits/titans aether for quite some time now over all those encounters we had (without falling into possession). Which would not only explain the WoL point and title as the strongest SMN, but also the fact why other certain NPCs can only summon egis.

Every single class/job in the game develops from the foundations they started with.

"Summoner" is an Allagan discipline specifically designed to counter Primals by using their own powers/essences against them.
And Egis are just as essential to them as faeries are for Scholar or cards are for Astrologian.

They may add new toys such as Trances/Demi-Summons or what-have-you. But Egis are not going away.

Originally Posted by Anhra

Or they just rework the entire thing from scratch. Also, were disgussing gameplay here so supplemental ressources are the last thing on this planet which should stop us from getting a properly functioning job.

That's a slippery slope.
If people wanted to change the story/lore because they "don't like it", then where would that lead us? and where would that end?

Classes/jobs' stories/lore are just as important to this game's universe as the MSQ.

In any case, them "reworking" both Bard and Machinist is proof that they can change a job mechanically while also keep its story and identity intact.
And I expect the same out of Summoner in the near future (while keeping Egis around).

**Anhra** · 03-12-2021 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Exodus-E

As far as I'm aware, WHM's and AST's lore are still consistent/intact.
They may have changed mechanically, but they still retain (most) of their toolkits as they were presented within their respective stories.

Then how do you explain WHM random focus of light magic, despite borrowing the powers of nature, with the latter being almost nonexistent?

What about AST take on Neutral Stance and the cards? Squeenix literally altered the Job quest dialouge when they dumbed down the cards to what it is today.

Originally Posted by Exodus-E

They may add new toys such as Trances/Demi-Summons or what-have-you. But Egis are not going away.

That's a slippery slope.
If people wanted to change the story/lore because they "don't like it", then where would that lead us? and where would that end?

Classes/jobs' stories/lore are just as important to this game's universe as the MSQ.

In any case, them "reworking" both Bard and Machinist is proof that they can change a job mechanically while also keep its story and identity intact.
And I expect the same out of Summoner in the near future (while keeping Egis around).

My point on this is, the current SMN we got, is not what i'd call a Final Fantasy Summoner. In any Final Fantasy game which had summoners, the summons were not only the flashiest, they also had a real impact, if you played any of these you might know what i am talking about here. The FFXIV Summoner however, does not live up to this legacy. It is a generic Caster that just happens to have a Pet following him arround that vaguely resembles a summoned creature, but the actual Summoner Job starts the moment you get Bahamut, and not before that.

FFXI managed, despite being being a far older Game, to actually create a really interesting Summoner Job, which i think the FFXIV team could learn a thing or two from them.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...nal_Fantasy_XI)

**Exodus-E** · 03-12-2021 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Anhra

Then how do you explain WHM random focus of light magic, despite borrowing the powers of nature, with the latter being almost nonexistent?

What about AST take on Neutral Stance and the cards? Squeenix literally altered the Job quest dialouge when they dumbed down the cards to what it is today.

For WHM:
It's Conjurer that borrows the powers of nature (i.e. Earth, Wind and Water).
While the Amdapori did use those elements back in their era, they mostly relied on light (i.e. unaspected towards passivity) and potent restorative spells.
Case in point: Holy and Benediction.

For AST:
The Major Arcana has always been the main focus on the job.
They may have altered what the cards do in combat (i.e. damage boost + seals), but what they represent has been left intact.
No cards have been removed at all.

Originally Posted by Anhra

My point on this is, the current SMN we got, is not what i'd call a Final Fantasy Summoner. In any Final Fantasy game which had summoners, the summons were not only the flashiest, they also had a real impact, if you played any of these you might know what i am talking about here. The FFXIV Summoner however, does not live up to this legacy. It is a generic Caster that just happens to have a Pet following him arround that vaguely resembles a summoned creature, but the actual Summoner Job starts the moment you get Bahamut, and not before that.

FFXI managed, despite being being a far older Game, to actually create a really interesting Summoner Job, which i think the FFXIV team could learn a thing or two from them.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...nal_Fantasy_XI)

Aaaaand there we go.
The usual "because it's not like past FF games" post, despite previous FF games also having their own "interpretations" on their own elements (FF11 in particular).

Please refer to the following posts on my stance regarding those tired old arguments:

The point is that it's not a valid excuse.
Otherwise we'd go down a very deep rabbit hole regarding "what's a job supposed to be like or not" (e.g. Scholar, Blue Mage or Sage).

**Anhra** · 03-12-2021 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Aaaaand there we go.
The usual "because it's not like past FF games" post, despite previous FF games also having their own "interpretations" on their own elements (FF11 in particular).

Please refer to the following posts on my stance regarding those tired old arguments:

The point is that it's not a valid excuse.
Otherwise we'd go down a very deep rabbit hole regarding "what's a job supposed to be like or not" (e.g. Scholar, Blue Mage or Sage).

First of all, your obligatory Linkspam post doesn't mention anything new that has been mentioned already in this Thread(some of it even by yourself).

Second, don't complain about other People's desire of wanting a proper SMN that has its main focus (as stated by one of your Links btw) on Summoning when you spout the similar hipocricy yourself with "it has always been like that, since ancient times in this game".

And just shooting a idea off just because it is "someone else's design only shows how ignorant people like you are and how less they care about the combat system as a whole. Every Player that has experienced multiple MMORPG's in their lifetime notices in no time, that the combat system of FFXIV, is mediocre at best since it is lacking alot of things, and a good chunk of it comes from the way how Jobs are designed in the first place. It is not that theyre not working, its more like that they are far too similar from one another and in the case of SMN, the SMN is up tolv49 still just a Arcanist gameplaywise, and some reskinned egiglamour wont fool anyone here.

Tl;dr, imo, if we truly want to have properly functioning jobs then we shouldnt expect bandaid patches over time to fix things, some Jobs need a Operation, and SMN (altrough not a large one, if compared to healers and tanks) is one of them.

**Karshan** · 03-12-2021 10:00 PM

We can keep Egis AND add more summons through the next 2 expacs, to make it feel more and more like a classic FF summoner.

Having Egis doesn't prevent summoner from being a summoner anymore ; it was the case when there was only them where they felt underwhelming compared to primal counterparts.
But they added a completely new side and hopes and possibilities when they created Bahamut (and you just have to check the job trailer reaction videos when Bahamut appeared to understand just how popular and loved classic FF summons and summoner are...). And they further expended on that with Phoenix.

To me adding more summons and reworking the kit to dwelve more into pet interactions is the way to go as it is a win / win : Those who like Egis still have them and they are better integrated in the kit, those (like me) who very much prefer summons are also happy since they have them as well.
The only ones unhappy would be those who actively hate Egis and want them gone, but even though it was understandable in the past when they appeared to be in the way of summons, it is not the case anymore and Devs proved it by adding 2 summons, and reworking Egis for the 1st time in Shadowbringers.

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