Remove Gender-Lock From Gear / Glamour Please

[Gemina]

I will grant that in today's society clothing does have an inherent tilt towards masculine or feminine. I am of the mindset that it is more if a spectrum but that is neither here nor there. This is one of those points that no one would really be able to sway the otherside. I just find it interesting that Pants are considered more natural now even though for the longest time they were firmly considered more masculine attire proving perception can change. Yet dresses are the hill people want to die on.

Today's society has, or is attempting to abolish gender norms. Ironically, clothing is what has not deviated from these established constructs in society, which is why a male wanting to express femininity would choose a dress or skirt over pants. I'm not a fashion design expert in the sense I have never done it professionally, but I do know that when designers that make the big bucks try a more androgynous approach to their display cases, it tends to not work out. I would even wager that cash shop items that appear more gender neutral will not sell anywhere near as well as the stuff clearly designed for males or females, because a masculine or feminine look is what the player(s) will be striving for.

That is the thing should the reasoning behind why someone prefers one piece over the other matter? Should pants are more practical, but in the end should the reason matter as to why someone would want to wear something? This is the part that confuses me regarding all of this. People are more likely to defend the ability of females wearing pants, yet when a dress comes into play it causes some conflict. If one option that goes against established gender norms, then why not another? Granted, I get one is considered stranger then the other by most standards.

Overall maybe I am just weird cause I just do not see the difference between a female asking for more pant options and male asking for more dress options.

From my own PoV, it does not matter to me what someone wears. A male can wear a dress, and I won't ridicule him, or even pay him much mind. The issue I have is when this male carries an expectation for me to conform to these ideals when I've was raised to think entirely different. If that dress makes him feel good, then by all means he can wear it. Just don't expect me to see anything other than a man in a dress, or a male trying to embrace femininity.

Pants don't receive the same negative connotations for females for several reasons. For starters pants are more gender neutral than a dress. Pants are a practical item of clothing suited to keep the legs covered and warm. It makes sense that these are available for women, especially those in colder climates. The other thing is that lady pants are very much designed with a female flair. It is very easy to differentiate between pants for males and pants for females. Like dresses, they are designed in a way that accentuates their features. They are usually more form fitting, and enhance the shape of the legs and the bum. Male pants are almost always strictly utilitarian. The last, and something that gives your argument some steam is that fashion is associated with females far more than males. A female can wear a three piece suit clearly designed for males and still be considered feminine. The opposite does not hold true for a male in a dress.

There are reasons for this as well. For example the female in a tux is still going to express femininity. Her gestures, demeanor, use of makeup, and desire for presentation don't deviate and all help sustain the feminine image. A male in a dress can and likely will behave more like a female, even if only by pure happenstance. The dress will not allow him to pick something up like he normally does, or sit in the same manner as if he was wearing pants. He will have to cross his legs instead of manspread. He won't have pockets and will likely have to carry around a purse. Then there is simply the matter that he just can't pull off the look as well as the female in the suit. This is definitely a privilege females have, own, and don't plan on relinquishing anytime soon.

I don't mind much when a pants option in the game turns into a skirt because my character is female because we still have a boat load of pants options to choose from. Out of all the jobs I play and glamour (this includes DoH and DoL) only my WHM and SCH are in skirts. All others are in pants. Coincidentally enough, both of those skirts are pants when males wear them. Instead of griping about that though, I simply just went with it and chose glamour options that went well with the skirts, and I would do the same if I played a male character.

[Juzjuzz]

One thing i find funny, a lot of people consider clothing genderless (like food right?) and then i see the same ppl saying things like this :

"Being concerned about your masculinity is not very masculine" Because i consider some outfits too feminine for me." 2P outfit is too feminine for him to wear every fucking day ???? Jesus that guy is insecure !!!! Not Manly !!!! ". Men can't have any preference in clothing i guess, only feminine ppl. Because going to buy clothing is only feminine behavior ofc, all Men should wear dresses all the time btw.

"Let us be real all this focus on what clothing is considered masculine or feminine is not really masculine behavior" Never once did i say that everyone should agree with me btw. It's just what I consider too feminine for me. And i know many others have a similar taste in cloving.

"Oh, wow, wearing a dress as a male removes your primary, secondary characteristics? Or impacts how you personally identify with your gender?" Then a male never wearing a dress should be okay too right? No point in complaining. Sames for girls skirts only should be okay. This makes no sense lmao.

Trying to shit on the masculinity of other ppl is discusting tbh. Same for the feminine side.

[Awha]

Today's society has, or is attempting to abolish gender norms. Ironically, clothing is what has not deviated from these established constructs in society, which is why a male wanting to express femininity would choose a dress or skirt over pants. I'm not a fashion design expert in the sense I have never done it professionally, but I do know that when designers that make the big bucks try a more androgynous approach to their display cases, it tends to not work out. I would even wager that cash shop items that appear more gender neutral will not sell anywhere near as well as the stuff clearly designed for males or females, because a masculine or feminine look is what the player(s) will be striving for.


From my own PoV, it does not matter to me what someone wears. A male can wear a dress, and I won't ridicule him, or even pay him much mind. The issue I have is when this male carries an expectation for me to conform to these ideals when I've was raised to think entirely different. If that dress makes him feel good, then by all means he can wear it. Just don't expect me to see anything other than a man in a dress, or a male trying to embrace femininity.

Pants don't receive the same negative connotations for females for several reasons. For starters pants are more gender neutral than a dress. Pants are a practical item of clothing suited to keep the legs covered and warm. It makes sense that these are available for women, especially those in colder climates. The other thing is that lady pants are very much designed with a female flair. It is very easy to differentiate between pants for males and pants for females. Like dresses, they are designed in a way that accentuates their features. They are usually more form fitting, and enhance the shape of the legs and the bum. Male pants are almost always strictly utilitarian. The last, and something that gives your argument some steam is that fashion is associated with females far more than males. A female can wear a three piece suit clearly designed for males and still be considered feminine. The opposite does not hold true for a male in a dress.

There are reasons for this as well. For example the female in a tux is still going to express femininity. Her gestures, demeanor, use of makeup, and desire for presentation don't deviate and all help sustain the feminine image. A male in a dress can and likely will behave more like a female, even if only by pure happenstance. The dress will not allow him to pick something up like he normally does, or sit in the same manner as if he was wearing pants. He will have to cross his legs instead of manspread. He won't have pockets and will likely have to carry around a purse. Then there is simply the matter that he just can't pull off the look as well as the female in the suit. This is definitely a privilege females have, own, and don't plan on relinquishing anytime soon.

I don't mind much when a pants option in the game turns into a skirt because my character is female because we still have a boat load of pants options to choose from. Out of all the jobs I play and glamour (this includes DoH and DoL) only my WHM and SCH are in skirts. All others are in pants. Coincidentally enough, both of those skirts are pants when males wear them. Instead of griping about that though, I simply just went with it and chose glamour options that went well with the skirts, and I would do the same if I played a male character.

One thing i find funny, a lot of people consider clothing genderless (like food right?) and then i see the same ppl saying things like this :

"Being concerned about your masculinity is not very masculine" Because i consider some outfits too feminine for me." 2P outfit is too feminine for him to wear every fucking day ???? Jesus that guy is insecure !!!! Not Manly !!!! ". Men can't have any preference in clothing i guess, only feminine ppl. Because going to buy clothing is only feminine behavior ofc, all Men should wear dresses all the time btw.

"Let us be real all this focus on what clothing is considered masculine or feminine is not really masculine behavior" Never once did i say that everyone should agree with me btw. It's just what I consider too feminine for me. And i know many others have a similar taste in cloving.

"Oh, wow, wearing a dress as a male removes your primary, secondary characteristics? Or impacts how you personally identify with your gender?" Then a male never wearing a dress should be okay too right? No point in complaining. Sames for girls skirts only should be okay. This makes no sense lmao.

Trying to shit on the masculinity of other ppl is discusting tbh. Same for the feminine side.

What I am saying is that people seem to like to pick and choose what is masculine or feminine as they are objective norms, but can we really say they are objective when clearly people have differing views as to what we consider masculine or feminine. That is the point that confuses me, we come up with rational or reasons as for why one piece of clothing is considered more neutral for the times now, but at a time that was not the case. I sure during a different time seeing a women wearing pants was considered outlandish and inappropriate. Though that standard has shifted over time. Even the reasoning as why a man in a dress would be inherently feminine by nature of the mannerism that are associated with wearing such clothing are subjective. Sure they may be normalized and acceptable normative behavior, but that is more so a byproduct of social conditioning and not an objective fact. Sure people may laugh, mock, be uncomfortable. or indifferent around a person wearing something they do not approve of for whatever reason. This does not make them a bigot or anything, but it is also not the best reason in my opinion to shoot down the idea to allow others the option to express themselves in a way they see fit.

That is where my confusion and beef is with this. Sure this would be a massive task to handle and not being for such a change due to it possibly taking away time from other projects or even how it may shift the design matrix to fit a more universal look to save on development time are reasonable worries and considerations that do warrant future discussion as to how far should SE go to inclusion. Though maybe I am just reading into it too much but it just feels like some that are against it largely boil down to a personal preface of not wanting something because they do not agree with it. This line of thinking has always threw me off when it comes to adding extra options to a game. Simply not wanting others to have something because the way it may make them feel seems odd to me.

Granted, I joke but my tastes in and out of game are very simply I stick with one type of glam or clothing setup and keep using the same style across the board. So in terms of fashion I have very little understanding since I wear the same type colour shirt and pants just have many pairs. So I cannot argue regarding what goes into making what appears to be good or not. It just seems like this is largely fueled by an emotional response against a trend that some going forward with no larger agree with.

As for the comment regarding "Being concerned about your masculinity is not very masculine" I think that has more to do with how confusing it is people seem worried about how one action or behavior is viewed one way under the current status quo, but for others within that same status quo would also view such behavior as also not very masculine. Was not so much a jab more so an apparent contradiction that could be reached depending on ones personal view or understanding of masculine behavior.

In an ideal world I would love to see all options opened up, I do know that is a task that may not be worth the investment, and that is understandable stance since time is money, and developer time is an expensive resource. Granted I probably would never use such an option unless it was to make a meme set or something having the option for players to choose would be cool. I know this will never happen, just like the hide glamour feature suggested sometime ago will never happen. I just throw my hat into the ring to gain a better understanding as to why people think a certain way regarding one action and another way depending on such subjective contextual markers that are often based around ones own personal biases on the subject. It seems odd to allow ones own biases to be the soul determining factor that sways one thoughts away from one thing or another when it comes to relation of others. Sure I get it if it is used to make the choice on a personal level, but when that understanding used as a reason to prevent others the chance to what they please in this realm it seems weird to me.

[SturmChurro]

Some very intellectual arguments being had in here, but what does this have to do with mogstation pants?

[Awha]

Some very intellectual arguments being had in here, but what does this have to do with mogstation pants?

Pants are a lie, only the maid outfit is truth. Though I will say the male Vest from the Valentin event should have been unisex. Or was it? I was not playing during that time.

[MilkieTea]

Some very intellectual arguments being had in here, but what does this have to do with mogstation pants?

Give me mogstation pants. Give me the ability to be a male character and wear mogstation dresses. Give me both! >:O

On a serious note though, I'm done talking with certain people in this thread, the leaps and bounds they make to justify themselves is insane. Give me mogstation pants. Give me the ability to be a male character and wear mogstation dresses. Give me both! >:O

I wanna be a hrothgar wearing beautiful dresses. >:O

[Awha]

Give me mogstation pants. Give me the ability to be a male character and wear mogstation dresses. Give me both! >:O

On a serious note though, I'm done talking with certain people in this thread, the leaps and bounds they make to justify themselves is insane. Give me mogstation pants. Give me the ability to be a male character and wear mogstation dresses. Give me both! >:O

I wanna be a hrothgar wearing beautiful dresses. >:O

In the end it is the simple things should be able to get behind. You know the idea of being able to give more people a reason to spend money on the mogstation for some wonderful outfits.

[MilkieTea]

"Oh, wow, wearing a dress as a male removes your primary, secondary characteristics? Or impacts how you personally identify with your gender?" Then a male never wearing a dress should be okay too right? No point in complaining. Sames for girls skirts only should be okay. This makes no sense lmao.

Trying to shit on the masculinity of other ppl is discusting tbh. Same for the feminine side.

Then we agree. Don't see why you don't see that? Men not wanting to wear dresses is fine, I just want the option, as a man, to wear a dress as a male character. The option, as a man, to wear the pants I want to wear as a female character. Having the option there doesn't take anything away from those who want to wear pants as male toons and skirts as female toons. Gender isn't just a strict "well it's gotta be one way or the other!!!", it's an expression of self, and not having the options just makes things that much harder to be able *to* self-express gender.

[Lihtleita]

gender lock is pointless imho. its like gating certain colours and i don't get why people would be against having more options.

[BlitzAceRush]

gender lock is pointless imho. its like gating certain colours and i don't get why people would be against having more options.

You'll find most aren't against it in general (though some are) but more against the cost, everything takes time and resources, personally I'd be totally fine with this, but if it cost less new glamor? That's where I'd rather they didn't if that was the case.
There's also the argument of they'd likely just make one design going forwards, you wouldn't get pants that turn into skirts or skirts that turn into pants, you'd get a skirt or pair of pants and just have to hope it's the version you want while the others are out of luck.