MSQ Needs Further Condensing

[Kamatsu]

they trimmed the fat. there's no more fat to be trimmed, without affecting the meat itself.

See, to these ppl - that's the problem. too much meat. They want to bypass dinner and go straight to desert. IE bypass the story and get into repetitive grinding of the same dungeons, trials, and raids.... as a small percentage of MMO players want to do in MMO's. Read their comments and you'll see... they want MSQ either completely removed for them (ie 100% optional) or gutted for everyone... just so they can get to max level and grind away.

Yes they are a small percentage of the MMO gaming community, that has in too many games receieved abnormally high dev attention for their numbers.

Classic example is WoW - a classic 'raid' styled MMO, where the story (up till say the last 5? years) was completely ignorable and a big focus of dev's was, and is, on raids. Yet if you go back in time to Dev interviews and comments back in 2010-2012... you'll see that up to that point only around 7-8% of their active player base had ever stepped into a Raid. So a MMO that was so heavily raid-orientated... couldn't even get 10% of it's playerbase into these same raids that Dev's wpent a lot of time working on. This is why they were doing things such as moving the top raid from vanilla wow to the base raid in WotLK, working on and adding in "looking for raid", then tying in more and more story elements into the raiding system... to firstly encourage ppl into raiding, and when that didn't work... to force them to do at least parts of the LFR raids to be able to get through the expansions.

If a game such as WoW, a raid-centric MMO, has to use force to get ppl to raid... cuz less than 10% would do it otherwise, it says exactly how big the "rush to endgame and grind" playerbase it. These stat's in regards to raid players was backed up by comments from other games such as LotRO, STO & ST:TOR who all stated the % of players involved in their hardcore/endgame content was small.


As for the "Well, SE already cut some story down so it'll happen again" commentary - what they cut was parts of the MSQ that have been complained about for many years, by both story-driven/focused players and those less inclined to worry about the story. In fact, the sections they shortned are the only area's I've seen ppl stating it was a slog and should be removed/re-worked. So SE have done that... and without shitting over the story, doubt you'll see much more cut from the game.

Going back to the WoW / FFXIV comparison - While WoW pretty much stayed raid-focused (to the point of forcing it on ppl who didn't want to raid), XIV took a different angle. It focused more on the story, and everything else was additional stuff to appease the different taste's of the different players. Mostly story, with some dungeon/raid/trial grinding for those who did, PvP for those who did, glamor for those who wanted to be all pretty & such, crafting & MB for those types, etc.

Going on a personal anecdotal commentary here - I played WoW for just over 10 years. During that time I was a part of various different guilds on different servers. I was in 1 of the top raiding guilds that pushed for world 1st's come dungeon & raid releases (I was in the B/C team, so more casual raiding for me), as well as a few 'casual' guilds which just focused on playing, doing stuff we had fun with, etc.

The raiding guild was tiny in comparison to the social guilds. Our competitor raiding guilds were tiny as well. The social guilds had huge # of active players all doing various different things. Most were slowly working through the story, but some were focused on doing crafting, some were into doing RP (not ERP) stuff, some were just having fun grinding reps where possible without raids, some did do casual raiding, etc. They were hectic as hell with in-game chat going non-stop, multiple different channels on voice-chat for ppl... way, way, way bigger and more active and spread out in what they were doing in the game than the raiding guild.

We also had connections to other social guilds... which were all the same as ours - big, boisterous, full of ppl doing story, old dungeons, crafting, rp'ing, pvp, etc. It's bizarre when you consider it... here we were playing a supposed raid MMO... yet the vast majority of it's playerbase had absolutely no interest in raids.

Back to XIV - I see these threads come up now and again, and it's usually the same tired old arguments about "We just want to get to endgame without paying", as well as "SE should do this cuz there's HUGE amounts of ppl who would come play and they'd profit big time from it", etc. Always a vocal minority screeching for it.

You know what - I support you. Let SE add in a different sub - same cost as the current sub, so no quibbling about paying extra or such.. You pay that sub and no MSQ for you. You'll have every dungeon, trial, alliance raid and raid unlocked from the start. However you can *only* do these dungeons, trails, & raids with ppl on the alternative sub. You don't have to worry about subbing, you get access to all hubs in the game from the start... but can do no side-quest's, no beasttribe quest's... nothing PvE related other than grinding dungeons, trials, and raids with like-minded ppl.

[van_arn]

You know what - I support you. Let SE add in a different sub - same cost as the current sub, so no quibbling about paying extra or such.. You pay that sub and no MSQ for you. You'll have every dungeon, trial, alliance raid and raid unlocked from the start. However you can *only* do these dungeons, trails, & raids with ppl on the alternative sub. You don't have to worry about subbing, you get access to all hubs in the game from the start... but can do no side-quest's, no beasttribe quest's... nothing PvE related other than grinding dungeons, trials, and raids with like-minded ppl.

Asinine. There are plenty of people that skip to the current era, find out the story is actually pretty cool, and go back and catch up storywise.

Furthermore, when 2.0 launched the length of the MSQ was reasonable. It's now pretty much eight times longer, and it's slated to increase to nine when the new expansion drops.

That is too long to expect a new player to sit through before they get to the "good part." And yes, gameplay-wise, it takes that long to get to content that isn't nerfed intentionally or unintentionally by class changes over the years or too-generous stat sync.

It's extremely easy to lose perspective on just how long the MSQ is if you've kept up with it for a while. I don't say we should just dump people at the endgame, but there needs to be a way onboard players faster so they get to the "real" game within 30-40 hours that isn't a lazy copout of just skipping players with a potion.

A trilogy of books with an amazing ending isn't an amazing trilogy if most people can't suffer through to the end. The same concept applies to the MSQ, even though this is an MMO. Story is story, and a well-told story cannot be a well-told story if it overstays its welcome.

Abridgment for new players is mandatory with a story this long. Keep the full-length scenario in New Game+.

[SturmChurro]

Asinine. There are plenty of people that skip to the current era, find out the story is actually pretty cool, and go back and catch up storywise.

Furthermore, when 2.0 launched the length of the MSQ was reasonable. It's now pretty much eight times longer, and it's slated to increase to nine when the new expansion drops.

That is too long to expect a new player to sit through before they get to the "good part." And yes, gameplay-wise, it takes that long to get to content that isn't nerfed intentionally or unintentionally by class changes over the years or too-generous stat sync.

It's extremely easy to lose perspective on just how long the MSQ is if you've kept up with it for a while. I don't say we should just dump people at the endgame, but there needs to be a way onboard players faster so they get to the "real" game within 30-40 hours that isn't a lazy copout of just skipping players with a potion.

A trilogy of books with an amazing ending isn't an amazing trilogy if most people can't suffer through to the end. The same concept applies to the MSQ, even though this is an MMO. Story is story, and a well-told story cannot be a well-told story if it overstays its welcome.

Abridgment for new players is mandatory with a story this long. Keep the full-length scenario in New Game+.

Yes. As more expansions and updates arrive, the time it will take to actually get to current relevant content will only get longer and longer. Without them, yes, condensing the previous MSQ, or alleviating this issue in some way or other. I do not think, "just buy a skip" is a good alternative.

100+ hours is an extremely lengthy period of time, to actually play "content" with your friends. I don't care what some people's opinions are on the subject of endgame, or the story. As it stands, it is just too lengthy (even if you skip dialogue), It's a roadblock for new players trying to get into the game. This isn't some complete single-player experience where you can spend 30-50 hours, and you are done. This is an ongoing subscription based mmorpg. There has to be a better way of doing this.

Also. even single-player games notice a dropoff of players when the story is very lengthy, for that matter.

[Reyketi]

Yes. As more expansions and updates arrive, the time it will take to actually get to current relevant content will only get longer and longer. Without them, yes, condensing the previous MSQ, or alleviating this issue in some way or other. I do not think, "just buy a skip" is a good alternative.

100+ hours is an extremely lengthy period of time, to actually play "content" with your friends. I don't care what some people's opinions are on the subject of endgame, or the story. As it stands, it is just too lengthy (even if you skip dialogue), It's a roadblock for new players trying to get into the game. This isn't some complete single-player experience where you can spend 30-50 hours, and you are done. This is an ongoing subscription based mmorpg. There has to be a better way of doing this.

Also. even single-player games notice a dropoff of players when the story is very lengthy, for that matter.

Grind through 100-250 hours of story vs skip all cutscenes, and do quests like a rat in a skinner box, or pay $115

OR

condense the MSQ

:S

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

[Ammokkx]

Grind through 100-250 hours of story vs skip all cutscenes, and do quests like a rat in a skinner box, or pay $115

OR

condense the MSQ

You say this as if "just condense the MSQ" is some kind of simple undertaking itself.

Point me to the stuff that you can condense, go on, I'll wait.

Do you want to cut out helping house Fortemps? Then it makes no real sense anyone in Ishgard takes you seriously, as at that point you're no better than refugees.

Cut out parts of the Azim Steppe storyline? Then the final confrontation where it's an all-out brawl right before turning the full might of the Steppe on Garlemald really doesn't feel like it pays off.

Cut down on post ARR content? They did that, and people are already saying the Crystal Braves storyline is rushed now.

Cut down on the moogle chores? Mate, it's like 4 quests with no cutscenes. Really not that much time saved.

Take out cleaning Master Matoya's room? Kinda loses the whole "Yeah we're leaving this place" vibe they were going for.

Give actual examples instead of just going "condense MSQ" because you're not giving any useful insights into the situation. You're not proposing a solution to your own problem, you're just pretending you are.

[Reyketi]

You say this as if "just condense the MSQ" is some kind of simple undertaking itself.

Point me to the stuff that you can condense, go on, I'll wait.

Give actual examples instead of just going "condense MSQ" because you're not giving any useful insights into the situation. You're not proposing a solution to your own problem, you're just pretending you are.

Try going back, and reading my post.

Possible Solution Proposal


Introduce a new metric: Time-To-Cap (TTC) (Level 1 to max level)

Standardize the time is takes to reach level cap.

Apply this to every expansion that increases the level cap.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing, and cutscenes (perhaps still frames, with narration) bridging the gaps.

Of course, this should be OPTIONAL, thus allowing players to level in the manner of which they choose.

Unabridged, and abridged.

The Unabridged MSQ condensing nothing. The Abridged MSQ always conforming to the standardized TTC.

You're not proposing a solution to your own problem

Actually, considering SE are the ones who condensed the MSQ, I don't think it's "my" problem

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

[Ammokkx]

Try going back, and reading my post.

Sure. Let's do that, keeping in mind I told you to give examples.

Introduce a new metric: Time-To-Cap (TTC) (Level 1 to max level)

Standardize the time is takes to reach level cap.

Apply this to every expansion that increases the level cap.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing, and cutscenes (perhaps still frames, with narration) bridging the gaps.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing and cutscenes like still frames bridging the gap... where?

Do you lose the context of the Azim Steppe? Just say "and then Hien gathered an army."?

Do you just say "And then Alphy and the WoL were two good bois and helped all around Ishgard!"?

Or, hell, what about the whole Doma Vs. Gyr Albania issue we're having? Gyr already feels barebones as all get-out compared to Doma, so do you want to take even more screentime away from it?

What about the three fights with Zenos, do you cut one of them?

This is what I mean. You're not thinking about where to put these "gap bridgers" as you put it, and not only this, but with your proposed "time to cap" idea, then you're running into one more issue:

The story gets even more barebones as each expansion rolls around because now you have to retroactively think about what to skip in the previous expansion.

And sure, you can say

Of course, this should be OPTIONAL, thus allowing players to level in the manner of which they choose.

Unabridged, and abridged.

The Unabridged MSQ condensing nothing. The Abridged MSQ always conforming to the standardized TTC.

but that wouldn't change the fact "abridged MSQ" is an awful experience. I'd be more, far more, in favor of giving everyone a free skip then ever implementing something like this because it is patently obvious you did not, in any way, think through what this would actually look like.

Point to what you can voiceover without losing narrative impact. Tell the devs exactly what they can do to improve the game. Don't just throw an idea at the wall and expect them to figure it out for you.

Also, I hope you like dev time being taken away from the next expansion as they now go back and figure out exactly what's safe to skip and what isn't. I mean, it's easy right? Just do a voiceover with some stills, how hard can it be? All they need to do is recap the story. I'm sure /haurchefant hits just as hard when we get a hot cup of brew in the recap.

[MsMisato]

Yes. As more expansions and updates arrive, the time it will take to actually get to current relevant content will only get longer and longer. Without them, yes, condensing the previous MSQ, or alleviating this issue in some way or other. I do not think, "just buy a skip" is a good alternative.

100+ hours is an extremely lengthy period of time, to actually play "content" with your friends. I don't care what some people's opinions are on the subject of endgame, or the story. As it stands, it is just too lengthy (even if you skip dialogue), It's a roadblock for new players trying to get into the game. This isn't some complete single-player experience where you can spend 30-50 hours, and you are done. This is an ongoing subscription based mmorpg. There has to be a better way of doing this.

Also. even single-player games notice a dropoff of players when the story is very lengthy, for that matter.

You do realize Yoshi has answered this question in an interview a couple months back. They are not cutting down/making it optional for free regarding the MSQ as it would be removing a core feature of the FF franchise. This is a Final Fantasy game first and foremost and it has always been about the story everything else like the 8 and 24 man raids are secondary. This is one of the reason why the trail was expanding out to HW and probably after 6.0 drops it will be expanded out to StB. So players don't spend a lot of money playing catch up and can do it at their leisure. One of the big reason it takes people so long is people flip flopping between jobs. If players truly want to miss out on the core, then there is the msq skip pot they can purchase as he pointed out.

[SturmChurro]

You do realize Yoshi has answered this question in an interview a couple months back. They are not cutting down/making it optional for free regarding the MSQ as it would be removing a core feature of the FF franchise. This is a Final Fantasy game first and foremost and it has always been about the story everything else like the 8 and 24 man raids are secondary. This is one of the reason why the trail was expanding out to HW and probably after 6.0 drops it will be expanded out to StB. So players don't spend a lot of money playing catch up and can do it at their leisure. One of the big reason it takes people so long is people flip flopping between jobs. If players truly want to miss out on the core, then there is the msq skip pot they can purchase as he pointed out.

I have never once thought their stupid skips wouldn't lead to the current expansion, but I hope they realize they are losing players who don't want to spend centuries doing the MSQ to play with their friends (or just do more relevant content), or pay the 25 bucks or whatever ON TOP of what they may have paid for the game itself, and the expansion. Shortsighted, in my opinion. Definitely panders to a base though.

[DPZ2]

I hope they realize they are losing players who don't want to spend centuries doing the MSQ to play with their friends (or just do more relevant content), or pay the 25 bucks or whatever ON TOP of what they may have paid for the game itself, and the expansion. Shortsighted, in my opinion. Definitely panders to a base though.

How shall I put this?

Perhaps the number of players who stay for the story greatly outweighs the number of players who might stop because the story is too long? Perhaps the company has metrics that you cannot see beyond a wild guess based on gut feelings? Perhaps the core audience for the game enjoys going through each MSQ?

And maybe, just maybe, it doesn't really take 'centuries' to go through the MSQ to max level on a single job and more players enjoy the journey as much as the destination.

You can say "I don't like it, and I'm quitting because it's too long". Anecdotally, you can say "I invited 10 friends to play the free trial, and they all lost interest around level 40".

I wouldn't recommend this game to a friend solely based on current content. Many of my friends prefer table-top RPGs when we want to play together.