damage buffs for MCH?

[Rai_Takara]

I didn’t want an argument or a back/forth. But in my opinion the fact that there’s a 10% gap between the top and bottom dps tells me that ranged dps as a whole is underperforming. To clarify I do not believe that they should match or beat melee/mage dps but I do believe that 10% which is around 2000 dps less is too large a gulf. 5% would be more acceptable. A few things that annoy me are:

Movement tax. This is dumb because there are literally zero mechanics which utilise this capability making the tax pointless.

Job ease. This is dumb, as the devs change jobs throughout the years they get more or less complex. Mch for example used to be one of the most complex in 3.0 and now less so.

100% uptime: yes, I know hence agreeing they should be below everyone else but 10% is still too much.

No positional or cast times. Same as above

In conclusion. I do agree that ranged dps should be bottom of the pack. I do also believe they’re underperforming by a large amount

It doesn't matter what the gap is, if you were forced to bring a range the gap could be 300% and it would still be fine, numbers are abitrary for the sake of balance. To be frank, it just sounds like some people want big numbers for the sake of it and just want to be "top dog" and don't really care for balance.

Movement tax doesn't mean as much as it used to, but it is not dumb. BRD and MCH have free movement and don't care about which way mechanics are handled for 99% off the time. DNC has a bit more nuance with AoE Procs and dances but even then they also have En Avant to help.

I can agree with this, but this isn't just exclusive to range, all jobs are easier than their previous iterations.

They're fine as they are, if anything melees are underperforming. They need to be right up there as a whole next to SMN/BLM with BLM being top. Ideal comp is 2 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, but SMN being overperforming (as they've admitted and as we know) lets them be interchangeable right now with another melee, which is unintended.

[CKNovel]

It doesn't matter what the gap is, if you were forced to bring a range the gap could be 300% and it would still be fine, numbers are abitrary for the sake of balance. To be frank, it just sounds like some people want big numbers for the sake of it and just want to be "top dog" and don't really care for balance.

Movement tax doesn't mean as much as it used to, but it is not dumb. BRD and MCH have free movement and don't care about which way mechanics are handled for 99% off the time. DNC has a bit more nuance with AoE Procs and dances but even then they also have En Avant to help.

The gap matters, for many reasons.
One most obvious is that there is 4 DPS spot. You bring 2 Casters or 2 Melee, but if you bring 2 Ranged you are punished with low damage despite the double range mobility bringing nothing to the table. Addle has more presence than Tactician&Co. In PartyFinder you can easily experience parties limited to a singled ranged, that's mainly why I learned Samurai. And it's not only based on my experience alone.

You can't force the ranged role in parties either, that's a terrible and lazy idea. It's like being forced to bring your little brother or forcing someone to play the thief in cops&thief game. No one would want to be forced to play something especially if they damage would not matters.

Movement tax why not. But makes it worth something.
SMN is a monster right now, even post nerf. It has a valuable raise that brings a lot during progress, much more than mobility.
Again, despite the mobility advantage, ranged were lower than any other DPS on the first weeks, exactly where mobility should have shine.
And again, ranged don't have rDPS nor utility that would excuse such a gutting.

The ranged role is not fine. It went from a valuable support that could make the difference with manasong and mitigation to just a DPS with one mitigation and some extra for some.
The big support part was removed/gutted from rangeds and it wasn't replaced with anything.
Ranged role needs a rework, you can't slap a silence on it and a 1% stats to everyone and call it a day.

Casters have more support than ranged, they have a high mobility and remains top rDPS.
There is no mechanics that requires you to run like a monkey everywhere and during big mechanics, especially in ultimate content, you can't even target the boss. The GCDs loss is not that important, the uptime lost to mechanics doesn't makes the difference unless you compare Casters and Melee.

[Akiudo]

They're fine as they are, if anything melees are underperforming. They need to be right up there as a whole next to SMN/BLM with BLM being top. Ideal comp is 2 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, but SMN being overperforming (as they've admitted and as we know) lets them be interchangeable right now with another melee, which is unintended.

sorry but why exactly does blm need to be top in your equation ? because last i checked ranged (even if they are casters) are at least better than melee at handling mechanics that require to be away from the boss so casters as a whole should be lower than melee if we go by ability to handle mechanics. also even IF smn is still overperforming, you yourself stated time and time again that only balance inside a role itself matters, so a "balanced" smn would still be balanced against blm (the class you actively want to be top dps).

yes, this means that smn needs to deal at least some dps below blackmage, but add the fact it can rezz on top and one could again say they offer equal "value". if blm and smn were really balanced against each other by definition smn (and by extension redmage) needs to offer to the group something of a value at least close to equal to blm, i.e. close to being top dps.

so yea, what is it ? should casters be equal to melees or should they not ? because if blackmage should be equal to them, or even superior than the same has to go for the other 2 casters for them to be truly balanced against each other.

also again, if "having the easiest time to handle mechanics" needs to be punished than "having an easier time handling mechanics/the potential to handle them with no or only minimal loss compared to the competition" (casters compared to melee) has to account for something aswell.

[Rai_Takara]

One most obvious is that there is 4 DPS spot. You bring 2 Casters or 2 Melee, but if you bring 2 Ranged you are punished with low damage despite the double range mobility bringing nothing to the table.

Yes it matters, you now have two jobs that can be in lala land and do mechanics that are suboptimal with 100% uptime. For having an easier time, you do less damage. Simple as that. Double caster is an anomoly SE realizes and is trying to fix. The ideal comp is double melee for a balanced raid and that's what SE is trying to accomplish sans SMN being too strong.

The ranged role is not fine. It went from a valuable support that could make the difference with manasong and mitigation to just a DPS with one mitigation and some extra for some.
The big support part was removed/gutted from rangeds and it wasn't replaced with anything.
Ranged role needs a rework, you can't slap a silence on it and a 1% stats to everyone and call it a day.

Don't conveniently forget that the only reason we brought ranged before was because of their TP/MP refreshes. Otherwise we'd be better off with another melee or caster. So in effect, we traded the refreshes for the 1% tax and nothing changed.

sorry but why exactly does blm need to be top in your equation ?

Because BLM has many top end optimizations it needs to do to stay at the top and is the most dependent on the party to adjust to it. Otherwise a normal BLM will do less than a decent melee by virtue of having to move and adjust to the party.

yes, this means that smn needs to deal at least some dps below blackmage, but add the fact it can rezz on top and one could again say they offer equal "value". if blm and smn were really balanced against each other by definition smn (and by extension redmage) needs to offer to the group something of a value at least close to equal to blm, i.e. close to being top dps.

Rez will probably get gutted from casters in 6.0 or added to BLM and any new casters as a role action. It's the one last thing non-homogenized that needs to because RDM is lackluster as a result of it.

Also a balanced SMN would be doing the same damage as top melees, not BLM. And even BLM won't be much higher than the melees. We're talking within crit variance here, which translates to pretty much irrelevant aside from the top speed runners.

If you want ranged to do more damage, make it a harder role. Currently it's the easiest role out of the DPS.

[Akiudo]

Because BLM has many top end optimizations it needs to do to stay at the top and is the most dependent on the party to adjust to it. Otherwise a normal BLM will do less than a decent melee by virtue of having to move and adjust to the party.

you yourself have stated more than once that balance really only matters at the absolute top (for example as a reason for why its fine mch has a 500+ dps lead on the other physical ranged even at the 75+ percentile which only gets worse the lower you go even though its also the most consistent among the physical ranged), funny how this point of view flies right out of the window the moment it doesn't suit your preferences.

Rez will probably get gutted from casters in 6.0 or added to BLM and any new casters as a role action. It's the one last thing non-homogenized that needs to because RDM is lackluster as a result of it.

while certainly possible at this point this is pure conjecture, at the very least it seems completly acceptable to stay as is for the entirety of the current expansion which allready says a lot about squares handling of it. they could have easily taken it away from smn the last time they did any kind of smn nerf and explained this with "otherwise we would have needed to nerf its damage further, and we like rezz as a redmage only niche" or something along these lines. as thus far this hasn't happened saying "will probably get gutted or made a role action" is about as usefull as saying "well yea, but lets just pretend it didn't exist"

Also a balanced SMN would be doing the same damage as top melees, not BLM. And even BLM won't be much higher than the melees. We're talking within crit variance here, which translates to pretty much irrelevant aside from the top speed runners.

and with balanced smn doing as much as top melees not only would double caster remain viable, theres also still the aspect of "smn is better able to handle mechanics while minimizing losses compared to melee" which still has to be accounted for. you cant simply go "these ones (phyiscla ranged) are the easiest, so they can be punished to the ground, now these other classes (casters) ? yea, they still don't really need uptime strats, at least hardly compared to melees, also they can handle any kind of mechanic while melee only can conveniently do closed ranged mechanics but whatever, thats not really important because obviously no one would take them for that."

If you want ranged to do more damage, make it a harder role. Currently it's the easiest role out of the DPS.

thats not just deflecting, as my question was "why is it okay for casters to deal melee damage even though they offer advantages compared to melee" and not "why do you believe phys ranged should deal lower damage", its also completly missing the point. if classes are truly balanced than these balance has to happen on a "what do they offer to the group" basis. a class being easier to handle may in fact be something that they offer, that much is true. this however loses literally ANY value it could potentially offer if this "being easier to handle" does on no relevant level translate into actual gains for the group.

[Rai_Takara]

you yourself have stated more than once that balance really only matters at the absolute top (for example as a reason for why its fine mch has a 500+ dps lead on the other physical ranged even at the 75+ percentile which only gets worse the lower you go even though its also the most consistent among the physical ranged), funny how this point of view flies right out of the window the moment it doesn't suit your preferences.

I'm still talking about the top. I just added the benefit of it for the not so top people too. A top tier BLM is still in 99% of the groups they play not going to be able to turret to maximize damage and as such, will lose potential, so they need to be tuned to reflect that and that concept applies to not the top end too.

while certainly possible at this point this is pure conjecture, at the very least it seems completly acceptable to stay as is for the entirety of the current expansion which allready says a lot about squares handling of it. they could have easily taken it away from smn the last time they did any kind of smn nerf and explained this with "otherwise we would have needed to nerf its damage further, and we like rezz as a redmage only niche" or something along these lines. as thus far this hasn't happened saying "will probably get gutted or made a role action" is about as usefull as saying "well yea, but lets just pretend it didn't exist"

These are core changes to the role that are best saved for expansion patches. It's the next logical step, but it's not 100%, so it's a probably. What happened to tanks and healers is an indication of what needs to be done for a 4th caster, and so on.

and with balanced smn doing as much as top melees not only would double caster remain viable, theres also still the aspect of "smn is better able to handle mechanics while minimizing losses compared to melee" which still has to be accounted for. you cant simply go "these ones (phyiscla ranged) are the easiest, so they can be punished to the ground, now these other classes (casters) ? yea, they still don't really need uptime strats, at least hardly compared to melees, also they can handle any kind of mechanic while melee only can conveniently do closed ranged mechanics but whatever, thats not really important because obviously no one would take them for that."

SMN still has to cast which is more than can be said for any of the ranged as is currently. I'd rank the current ranged role higher if they still had their 1.5 second cast bars. People undervalue movement, just because it's not required to succeed.

thats not just deflecting, as my question was "why is it okay for casters to deal melee damage even though they offer advantages compared to melee" and not "why do you believe phys ranged should deal lower damage", its also completly missing the point. if classes are truly balanced than these balance has to happen on a "what do they offer to the group" basis. a class being easier to handle may in fact be something that they offer, that much is true. this however loses literally ANY value it could potentially offer if this "being easier to handle" does on no relevant level translate into actual gains for the group.

Because casters still have to cast and that's more than can be said by a long shot about any physical ranged DPS. The current curve naturally flows as melee >= caster > ranged. If ranged had some distance based "positionals" or other kind of mechanic to force them to use their mobility more, then we can bring that up to melee >= casters >= ranged. There still needs to be a pecking order, but you'd get your wish, IF ranged as a whole were more involved. So I say again, instead of telling SE to buff ranged, tell them to make it harder, the damage will then naturally come to it.

[CKNovel]

Because casters still have to cast and that's more than can be said by a long shot about any physical ranged DPS.

Let me take a massive sip out of my coffee cup while I think about how to remind you that:
-40% of the SMN cast are instant and unpunishable. An additionnal of 20% instants can be punished due to how Demi-Bahamut is behaving. Even if punished during those 20% extra, SMN would still outdps ranged by a landslide.
-Less than half of RDM casts are instant on top of a very easy rotation. It outdps melees on E8S but no ranged is able to do that.
-During progress and first clears, SMN and BLM were still at the top DPS and ranged at the bottom, casting means nothing. Especially when half of a fight is about remaining still or with waaaay enough time to slide cast or strategies that involves not moving.

[Rai_Takara]

Let me take a massive sip out of my coffee cup while I think about how to remind you that:
-40% of the SMN cast are instant and unpunishable. An additionnal of 20% instants can be punished due to how Demi-Bahamut is behaving. Even if punished during those 20% extra, SMN would still outdps ranged by a landslide.
-Less than half of RDM casts are instant on top of a very easy rotation. It outdps melees on E8S but no ranged is able to do that.
-During progress and first clears, SMN and BLM were still at the top DPS and ranged at the bottom, casting means nothing. Especially when half of a fight is about remaining still or with waaaay enough time to slide cast or strategies that involves not moving.

SMN still has to cast. They cannot have 100% no cast without sacrificing DPS output. Similarly RDM cannot have 100% instant casts. Both of those casters will have to cast at some point or another and that's more than has to be considered compared to Physical Ranged where we have it the easiest.

We should be at the bottom because we can do our role the easiest and in general end up being the ones to do any and all mechanics that require a ranged person to resolve, or do you think healers should be the ones baiting twintania's fire in UCoB?

You want the DPS to be upped for Physical Ranged? Ask SE to make them harder to play. They will never buff the DPS of the role as a whole as is until then.