Opinions: Should tanks work for aggro?

[Zkieve]

Yes they should . Just make voke and other enmity tools into OGCD, there are plenty of rotation holes were no ogcs to use.

Also. Bring turtle build for some fights back.
DPS CHECK is fine and i like it but NOT 100% of the time...

[Seraphor]

If tanks have to work for aggro, then you're guaranteeing burst heavy DPS ripping aggro off in the first few seconds of any and every fight.
Unless they don't have to work very hard, and then what's the point?

[Seraphor]

I dont think tanks should have to manage emnity beyond picking up mobs and performing tank swaps.
Their focus should be on mitigating damage and staying alive.
So by all means ramp up the damage, give tanks more involved mitigation skills and/or rotations.
But giving tanks three jobs; aggro, mitigation and dps, with all three being a constant struggle, is too much. Focus on two, and leave the third, emnity, as a minor aspect to manage.
Any difficulty tagged onto emnity is simply stuff you're delegating to the rest of the party. Oh the tank is syruggling to hold emnity? Then everyone else has to stop dpsing, or worse, the return of dps emnity management.

Healers are in a similar boat, they have healing and mitigation, dps, and then as a minor side focus, party buffs.

DPS literally just have their own dps to worry about, with sone minor focus on party support in some cases.

[SnowVix]

the biggest question that always comes up is how do you do this without making raiding all but require certain roles? Stormblood raiding practically required Ninja not for Trick but because they could Smokescreen and Shadewalker to prevent a White Mage from getting torn to shreds by God Kefka due to the sheer amount of healing they'd have to put out during certain mechanics. this is, honestly, the first expansion where classes aren't being left out of raiding or absolutely required in raiding, and i absolutely worry that reverting the enmity changes will just revert us to metas that leave certain classes unable to participate in raids.

[Kabooa]

the biggest question that always comes up is how do you do this without making raiding all but require certain roles? Stormblood raiding practically required Ninja not for Trick but because they could Smokescreen and Shadewalker to prevent a White Mage from getting torn to shreds by God Kefka due to the sheer amount of healing they'd have to put out during certain mechanics. this is, honestly, the first expansion where classes aren't being left out of raiding or absolutely required in raiding, and i absolutely worry that reverting the enmity changes will just revert us to metas that leave certain classes unable to participate in raids.

Pretty easy answer.

You don't give that to the DPS. You give them suppression effects that do not reduce threat or their generation, but rather work in a "You cannot target me until this is gone".

[ReiMakoto]

Could perhaps be fixed with giving all tanks positionals, so they do on par damage as the MT in your example since they can do their positionals while the MT can't.

That could work, but they'd have to lock them to OT stance or something so the MT can't use them to boost their damage even higher in situations where bosses position themselves.

[Shurrikhan]

That could work, but they'd have to lock them to OT stance or something so the MT can't use them to boost their damage even higher in situations where bosses position themselves.

That seems a bit unnecessary, at least for those reasons...

Isn't the general consensus that we want fewer auto-positioning moments? And besides, what's the harm in their being allowed to participate proportionately more in some other mechanic if/when denied a core one?

:: Honestly, not a fan of the idea of tank positionals, but just saying... why would that be an issue?

[Lyth]

...

There are plenty of things in this game that cause instant wipes when not executed perfectly. Most team jump-rope mechanics work this way. Failing to meet a dps check works this way. Failing to adequately heal through a string of raidwides and healer checks works this way. Why is it that when we come to tanking, we suddenly want things to be recoverable?

It's not just about the mechanics. Consequences are part of the experience too. Imagine if there was a 'save point' after every major mechanic in a boss fight. There's no consequence for messing up, so there's no satisfaction when you get through it. Wipes only have meaning because you go back to the start and have to go through everything again. That frustration is what gives you satisfaction when you finally clear.

Titan Ex was one of the most memorable fights in ARR. But what made it really memorable was the fact that if you fell off the ledge, you were permanently dead, with no hope of a raise. It wasn't just about falling it off. Imagine if we had more mechanics like that, which denied you the opportunity of a rez until the fight reset. Players might complain initially, but you'll find in the longer term that these short term frustrations are essential to making a fight memorable when you conquer them in the end.

There's no point in discussing any form of enmity management if there aren't consequences for not holding enmity. You'd probably even let the dps tank the mob if it helped your team push out more raid dps.

...

It still worked out that way in the end. You couldn't MT without having the best attendance rates in your group. Tanking has always been the most gear dependent role.

I do, in fact want to see tank and healer deaths directly translate into raid wipes. I also want to see a hard cap on the amount of raises and invulns you have per fight shared across the entire team. These are all just crutches. Push your playerbase, and you'll see what they're actually capable of achieving. It's short term frustration, but long term satisfaction.

[Shurrikhan]

There are plenty of things in this game that cause instant wipes when not executed perfectly. Most team jump-rope mechanics work this way. Failing to meet a dps check works this way. Failing to adequately heal through a string of raidwides and healer checks works this way. Why is it that when we come to tanking, we suddenly want things to be recoverable?

Those other tasks aren't achieved by one person simply standing there and passively holding 5x a DPS's eHP (in practice, infinitely more sustainability, in your example).

DPS checks are a team-wide responsibility, and deaths within them are typically recoverable. Healer checks themselves aren't "no one (i.e. tank) dies, or everyone does". What few jump-rope mechanics instawipe the party are already controversial.

Consequences are satisfying to the extent that the mechanics they punish can themselves be won or lost. My existing as a tank being extremely valuable to my team does not make my tanking any more fun to me; that added value beyond merely "worth bringing" does nothing for me.

It's not just about the mechanics. Consequences are part of the experience too. Imagine if there was a 'save point' after every major mechanic in a boss fight. There's no consequence for messing up, so there's no satisfaction when you get through it. Wipes only have meaning because you go back to the start and have to go through everything again. That frustration is what gives you satisfaction when you finally clear.

I already said as much. It's about where you draw the line. For instance, we've already seen that even the most difficult content in the game is not willing to forgo a checkpoint between, say, Kefka and God Kefka.

I'm fine with losing a tank being punishing. I'm not fine with it being a guaranteed death per following mob auto-attack. I don't care that much about Enmity either way, but there are ways to make enmity meaningful without relying on tanks being, effectively, a compositional check without which you almost instantly wipe.

You'd probably even let the dps tank the mob if it helped your team push out more raid dps.

Yeah, I'd be fine with there being certain mechanics uniquely worth letting the DPS tank. Just like I'd prefer to see more value in tanks filling other tasks by way of being more heal-efficient than DPS (ideally more frequent active mitigation opportunities), and for more of those mechanics to be baitable/interceptable.

I like there being shifting weights to these decisions rather than their being... non-decisions.

[Zkieve]

Cant we all agree on one point, that tanks feels like a DPS now and not a tank?