Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sqwall]

There is one thing that I have always held true to this day ever since 4.0 and 5.0 launched. Monk is not fun to play. It's exhausting to play optimally. It's mechanics are old and tired. It's damage is tied HEAVILY to the party, and RNG. And has been "redrafted" every expac since. Monk needs a MCH hail mary play at this point. If they did that they job would be perfect since I think MCH is a blast to play. I don't think I could EVER go back to the way MCH played before....yikes.

I feel deeply about monk as it was my first DPS I started and just have to shake my head at all the "fixes" everyone keeps coming up with. FFS the job just needs to be fun! I don't care about optimal at this point, and that can be figured out later. But first and foremost the job has got to be fun! Otherwise what's the point.

[Shurrikhan]

There is one thing that I have always held true to this day ever since 4.0 and 5.0 launched. Monk is not fun to play. It's exhausting to play optimally. It's mechanics are old and tired. It's damage is tied HEAVILY to the party, and RNG. And has been "redrafted" every expac since. Monk needs a MCH hail mary play at this point. If they did that they job would be perfect since I think MCH is a blast to play. I don't think I could EVER go back to the way MCH played before....yikes.

I feel deeply about monk as it was my first DPS I started and just have to shake my head at all the "fixes" everyone keeps coming up with. FFS the job just needs to be fun! I don't care about optimal at this point, and that can be figured out later. But first and foremost the job has got to be fun! Otherwise what's the point.

While I'm inclined to agree with much of this, just as much of it reeks of subjective generalities sold as hard facts or your preferences as everyone's.

"Exhausting to play optimally" is exactly why I've mostly loved Monk, despite its clunk, for 4 iterations of the game. It takes a more out of you than most other jobs, but that's why I enjoyed it. It was one of the few jobs I could end a 3-hour prog night on tired but not bored after the same guy has wiped us for the 10th time to one of the same few mechanics.

Its damage being "tied heavily to the party, and RNG" is a fact, but is clearly not essential to its kit; after all, as you've just said, the core of its mechanics "are old". Brotherhood and Deep Meditation, by comparison, are not. And Brotherhood and Deep Meditation's exact implementations, not even their concepts, are the only reason their damage is tied to the party or RNG at all.

Its having "been 'redrafted' every expac since" clearly isn't a big deal if its mechanics are "old and tired." Pick one.

And compare that to 5.x MCH. You may love it, but many a MCH veteran despises it. I didn't even main MCH, but I greatly enjoyed the way it played in 3.x and 4.x and now find it dull as dirt. It's functional, sure, but there's nothing unique to it outside of an even more ping-punishing Rapid Fire Hypercharge that's been reduced to minimal forethought. I would GLADLY go back to the way MCH played before, provided Heat wasn't a half-assed mechanic this time.

I feel deeply about monk as it was my first DPS I started and just have to shake my head at all the "fixes" everyone keeps coming up with. FFS the job just needs to be fun!

But, do you even bother reading them? Take the "fix" from just a page ago. Positioning is greatly eased up due to being able to run Double-Boot alongside Double-True. There is incredibly little party-tied damage -- too little to hold Brotherhood for. There is zero RNG.

Yes, it needs to be fun, but fun is going to differ for different people. You may love basic, functional jobs like MCH, but not everyone who plays Monk is going to be willing to give up all that --clunk, RNG, or party-dependence aside-- required more from Monk.

I for one would rather fix Monk for the best it's been, with anything that detracts from that replaced, than gut and replace Monk's kit as a whole with some template "functions gud with big exploders" playstyle.

[Silverneck]

I've read everything on this thread and on reddit to regarding. I've seen alot of people post some amazing ideas, my favorite was the rework that had chakras the main thing on monk and it was crazy detailed.

The issue imo with monk is the class design at this point and im not confident in Square to do anything for the rework. Monk has lost all of its identity from 2.0 to 5.3 and the class is now little more than a game of running between point A & B while punching. The devs need to sit down and decide what is job is. It current doesn't have a niche of it own. Its no longer top tier dps, its no longer the swiftest dps and its "utility" is as niche as the buffs they pruned. Most people cannot recommend the class to their friends and although there maybe a minority that will think that in intensive nature of the class for such tiny gains (Double- True for 21 potency increase) is wonderful. The reality is the class is just clunky and stale in 2020, monk is still in ARR. My only motivation for playing this class is Anatman.

We have 0 flashy skills and I get that alot of people dont care for that, but how do you recommend a class with meh dps potential and 0 flashy skills? When almost every other class looks insanely cool , how does a MNK compete with a DRG / NIN / SAM/ RDM or even PLD from a new player perspective? Even in the skill looks department we fail. I've been doing pugs with friends on SOS EX and just started Savage and the number of times people have msg'd me asking if I can be SAM instead is crazy. I find myself often asking my self the same question, SAM just feels so much better and has an answer to everything. I don't understand why monk is the only melee without a disengage or any kind of ranged output. Nor why we are tied to Crit based RNG in meditation & brotherhood.

There is honestly so much wrong with this class. I have no faith in square to fix it cuz they repeated promised to do so expansion after expansion and monk remain in its hamstrung state.

Disclaimer :This is really to stop people like Shurrikhan from saying well if you dont like it play another class and monk just isnt for you. I still love this class for its theme and play, I just wish it had a proper Identity and general less clunk.

[Jirah]

There is one thing that I have always held true to this day ever since 4.0 and 5.0 launched. Monk is not fun to play. It's exhausting to play optimally. It's mechanics are old and tired. It's damage is tied HEAVILY to the party, and RNG. And has been "redrafted" every expac since. Monk needs a MCH hail mary play at this point. If they did that they job would be perfect since I think MCH is a blast to play. I don't think I could EVER go back to the way MCH played before....yikes.

I feel deeply about monk as it was my first DPS I started and just have to shake my head at all the "fixes" everyone keeps coming up with. FFS the job just needs to be fun! I don't care about optimal at this point, and that can be figured out later. But first and foremost the job has got to be fun! Otherwise what's the point.

Ugh another MCH player that thinks every clunky job needs to follow in its intuitive shoes despite the present fact MCH is clunky itself

Ive seen some wonderful ideas in this forum for MNK reowrks but let me digress abit to see what 5.0 really did for MCH. Turrets are now less persistent thanks to battery and less valuable thanks to hyperchrage loosing its invul debuff and explosion and its AOE variant and its Hypercharge debuff, wildfire is less frequent and now is speed reliant rather than power so its no longer consequential to your kit so much so you can spam Auto cross 5 bloody times to achieve optimal wildfire, all of MCH support skills are gone Palaside, Refresh, Dismantle, Blank, and Arm Shot. Bullets Its unique feature, not even enhance just erased completely, Flamethrower no longer generates heat, and Heat gauge another iconic MCH gauge demoted to only unlock Heat blast and only heatblast once you hypercharge.

what did it gain, Baseless drill, air anchor battery gain charges for rico/Guass and a robot that is technically as dense as a DoT and the easiest job in the game outdoing RDM in that regard. it is no way to "enhance" a job to beat it to death with a simple stick and im sick of it being used constantly as a example for MNK to follow and makes me nervous for it tbh as every job since 5.0 has changed to be "easier" but not fun

[Shurrikhan]

This is really to stop people like Shurrikhan from saying well if you dont like it play another class and monk just isnt for you. I still love this class for its theme and play, I just wish it had a proper Identity and general less clunk.

As long as your solution to there being discrete and highly solveable issues in a job design isn't to remove a job and copy another into its place, I'm not about to discourage you. If, metaphorically, your solution to there being a rodent infestation in our shared house is to burn it down and truck in a pre-fab when I'm in the middle of calling the exterminator and insurance won't cover half the stuff inside, so to speak, then we'd have words.

Had Sqwall, for instance, used just about any other example of corrective reiteration than the one that unnecessarily most gutted its job into a barebone template style of play only to retain the worst of that job's former problems (as if dependence on low ping were itself the job's core identity instead of any of its core, far more nuance-capable systems), I'd probably be largely agreeing with him.

[Mikey_R]

Since no one corrected this earlier, having an extra physical for Brotherhood provides much, much less than the 1% main stat you get from having a caster. Just didn't want this misinformation to go unchallenged.

They did not make the comment in relation to the party as a whole, just purely based on optimising Monk's ability potential, which, obviously, in the case of Brotherhood, gets less utilised the more casters you have in a party, which includes magic phases like Ninjutsu and Paladin's Requiescat phase.

[silentwindfr]

honestly, i'm worried about the possible rework of the monk, until now all rework did lead to the jobs becoming more easier to play, but at the same time more boring to play....
when you see that some jobs did loose multiple skill leading to some extremely repetitive gameplay that is not really deep.... i'm scared

the monk is about speed and combo.... it was never means to be a jobs that buff.... never means to be a jobs that bring utility to the group, they are called the arm of the destroyer.... they was never means to be a jobs that will deal insane damage in one hit.... no, it was a jobs based on a continual dps....

what can happend with them rework that scare me:

- they scraps the combo system, saying it's too complicate for new player (when the trouble is not new player.... it was never and must never be the target.)
- they rework the grease lightning buff, because they think it's too fast.... when let's be honest it's slow... what most new player complain about is not the fact that the game is fast... but the inverse the game is slow... very slow, even with ogcd skill some jobs feel slow...
- they decide to add more utility to the monk, what we don't need... we are not here for buff... we are not here for support, we are here for kick some ass!

what i hope to see with the rework:

- revamp of the chakra system, this system never did work.... honestly it was added for the wrong reason... it's random, it's add almost nothing to our tool exept time to time new skill that will have worked as well as simple CD.... (even some was previously cd that was added to the chakra system)
- enhancement of the combo system, the monk have the most interesting combo system, i have never understand why they haven't added more deepth to the system... no front combo, nor 4 hit to the system.... and before some say me, front combo is not usefull, it can be interesting to have a combo that will work when the enemy don't show us his back, i found the cd that ignore positional the worst solution for the positional trouble link to boss mechanic...
- scarps this fist system, it's one of the rest of the V1 that was a mess.... for the one that don't know, monk was means to be an offtank in the v1 worst... it was double stats, yes double stats when the game wasn't means for double stats (int/str for the monk) the riddle can replace the fist of the earth easily... we are not means to tank, we are not means to take hit.... and when it happend either is our fault or because the fight is means to be like this.... meaning healer will cover us.

naturally all of this is my opinion... but i feel that soo far they had no clear view of what was a monk... even the positional of the monk is more like a thief than a monk, yes, the monk will exploit the weakness of the enemy guard.... but it will FACE his enemy not come in his ass.... all previous monk in the FF must laughs at us...

[Silverneck]

Mentioned in my last post about the chakra rework. Just wanted to post it here again cuz its honestly so well documented it think it deserved it. All credit to the author.

https://imgur.com/a/MNKeu1E

[Bhearil]

Personally with chakra system i would realyy really love to remove that 5 chakras nonense and put a 7 chakras system. It could be later upgraded to light and dark chakras.

Chakra sytem not only forces you to overfill often due to being forced to charge to full before being able to use it (every other class that uses stacks doesnt have this problem they can use something at 50% maximun charge cost at worst reducing overfilling chances) but also makes no sense lorewise why Monk can only use 5 chakras when at lv 50 can use 7 already and by lv 70 can use frigging 14 counting both dark and light ones...

[VentVanitas]

While I did say that theorycrafting was my weak point, the discussion of Chakra has interested me, now that GL is presumably not going to be a concern after the rework.

There are some suggestions that I do like, and I think MNK could benefit from. Specifically, SpeckledBurd's comment about how Brotherhood and Riddle of Fire can be merged for effectively no difference on the rotation as a whole, which I think is a great QoL idea. One less button bloating the hotbar, though I would not also mind giving them very slightly different uses so it would be a good idea to execute them at different times. (As Shurrikhan also suggests)

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a free button made from Brotherhood/RoF's merging, we'd have a new slot to take up anything. My suggestion? Another way to spend Chakra. This is in the scenario that Chakra remains largely the same, but the gaining of the resource is different, but consistent. (Whether it be through hitting Coeurl Form skills, reaching certain potencies, etc.)

And I don't mean a skill like Enlightenment. Perhaps it could cost two, or even one chakra? (Depending on how Chakra is gained in future patches) This would have to come at the cost of Forbidden Chakra being on a longer cooldown with a higher potency however. Make it a tool that can increase the potency or other effects on any weaponskill, similar to Hissatsu: Kaiten. Call it Leaden Strikes, and remove the Leaden Fist feature from Bootshine, all the while giving Dragon Kick a new function. (Perhaps a self crit/direct hit buff, which was also suggested by SpeckledBurd?) With this the job could potentially take a direction more about managing Chakra and learning how to best spend it before and after every TFC.

I can see this sort of kit being a lot more digestible if there were also an independent weaponskill like Touch of Death. A buffer for moving into positionals as well as a break mid rotation to think about what to do next with your Chakra. Not only that, but it can be seen as an indirect way to handle resource overflow. Albeit, not a solution, but something to ease that gaping wound until it's addressed properly and more importantly, by someone with a better understanding of Monk.

The official job guide says that Chakra is used by Monks to "perform extraordinary physical feats-" would a hypothetical skill such as Leaden Strikes not give that statement more truth? After all I like to view as spending Chakra (your "aura" essentially) to empower your moves as "Monk-like" as that's how it exactly functions in the job quests, for Monks other than us that is. Though I won't pretend that this scenario isn't flawed itself or that other suggestions aren't better. After all I did say theorycrafting wasn't my forte, as well as everybody having their own idea on what direction the job should go. I'm more than okay with people destroying the heck out of this post if it means more healthy discussion of the job is made.