6.0 summoner ideas

[HeulGDarian]

How is that a bad mentality? Square has lost my trust in changing SMN due to each iteration being objectively less rewarding to play, from ARR to now, with the shift from Stormblood to now being by far the biggest. My opinion on any future SMN changes made by said company reflect that.

At least I'm not suggesting things that are outright impossible, kill the job, or show a complete lack of game knowledge because said suggester doesn't even play the job. HINT HINT

As much as i want to disagree i get the sentiment.
Everyone can pick a job and "play" it, But to understand how the systems impact one another aka the reasoning behind them it needs a bit more than just get it to 80 and do dungeons. Add to that the fact people honestly dont care about said interactions and simply spit out what they themselves consider to be their ideal changes and you got this mess.
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Im not going to overly judge people who want bahamut trance to be a thing. Im ashamed to say i wanted that at some point, but then i learned and i played and i even got an example where bahamut not being tied to trance is godsent. E6s where ifrit jumps so that both can come down. This happens during trance , now if it was pheonix then you would have to lose a summon during the end cause you would have to w8 for the jump to happen, or you would still use it and lose half of pheonix. But cause its bahamut and trance you can just trance and simply end it just before he jumps , missing only 1 measly gcd and then get the whole summon phase out with the greatest of ease instead of losing a whole summon.
For people who say they love the demis theyd want pheonix to be like bahamut and not the opposite, it is the spell transformation that they enjoy and it would be 10 times better to just move that to the summons like i proposed.
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But it simply doesnt end there the constant bickering from the groups that only enjoy parts of summoners and not the whole package, the utter disregard of how their ideas would impact balancing in favour of spectacle, the hate it gets from other jobs not just the 2 casters but everyone else due to how much value it carries. The devs allow blm to have that much dps cause its hard , but when smn comes they say they dont want to balance with difficulty in mind even though smn is supposed to be overloaded , cause he summons gods and creates myriad of different effects. Not only that we got the people who arbitrarily choose how much of summoner is summoner or final fantasy and its just a recipe for disaster.
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The forums are clogged , the job simply put hasnt got a place where it can introduce the ideas it needs in order to develop, and i mean every part of it not just the demi part. You can see people asking for a change but the job is popular, you can see outside of the forums people enjoying it the job and what it currently brings, some are new some are not new, old players usually compare summoner with itself since it changes twice per expansion, while in the forums people compare it with its past iterations with an unfair degree of arbitrary. On the other hand we know yoshi p doesnt play it , and the 5.0 changes where a massive downgrade exasperating the notion that maybe the devs dont know what to do , which is a bit understandable given the nature of each summon being a phase.
So we cant give info for development and the devs dont know what to do since its a hard task to take.
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Summoner discussion in the forums is like you brought a friend for pizza, he goes ahead he says he loves pizza to death and then goes ahead and eats only the toppings, then says it sucked.

[DamianFatale]

Next summon demi should be Shiva. It would really contrast well with the fire from Phoenix.

[Deslyxic]

Tri-Disaster could then be reworked into something like an attack that briefly summons multiple Egis at once to perform a coordinated assault

Sorry to bring BRD again but, but I rather have Tri-disaster just have a shorter cd (without the reset effect of DWT) so you can use it to reset your dots every time, like BRD does with Iron Jaws, instead of having to use miasma/bio every fourth reset.

[NaiXizi]

I hope he can become a real caster, not a caster with long-range physical DPS mobility.

[Cled-cat]

Give us a trait at level 90 that transforms the Egi’s into Demi versions automatically during combat, so we won’t have cities full of Primals. Make Titan actually viable by letting it offer a physical damage bonus to the party either passively or through it’s actions and let Ifrit offer magical bonuses so the Summoner can adjust to their party set-up, while Garuda is the AoE/Ranged Primal option. Egi-Assault can become Demi-Assault. This alone would make Summoner feel a lot more consistent with its later game Moveset and not like 3 different jobs smashed together like it currently feels like.

[reivaxe]

I hope he can become a real caster, not a caster with long-range physical DPS mobility.

It's a shame that a 99 parsing Smn can make a troll parse run where they cast R3 only once and instead just use R2 and still get a 88 doing more DPS than any ranged played perfectly.

This job is straight up busted and it's clearly because the devs know no one would put up with it's janky pet system if it didn't offer the Mobility of a ranged with more Utility than a Rdm and rival the DPS of the Blm on top of all that.

Much the reason why I feel they will replace the dots and egis and do a less mobile phase.

[Archwizard]

Sorry to bring BRD again but, but I rather have Tri-disaster just have a shorter cd (without the reset effect of DWT) so you can use it to reset your dots every time, like BRD does with Iron Jaws, instead of having to use miasma/bio every fourth reset.

If SMN is forced to remain as the DoT caster, sure.

But the premise of my post was not to have it be a DoT specialist at all, to displace that onto a new caster, and focus SMN on the pets and summoning over DoTs.
Trim it down from two DoTs to just one, or even none at all with the pets serving in place. You wouldn't need Tri-Disaster to reset the DoT timer if you didn't have multiple.

[Kabooa]

See? This is what I mean. I wish these threads would make a pre-req that you need to play the job you're discussing, because literally all 3 "points" this user just made are easily demonstrably wrong and there is no evidence that they didn't just SCH to 80.

Taking a 99th Summoner on Ramuh, a single target nigh full uptime fight (So it doesn't benefit one ranged or caster over another), using the current 5.3 summoner who saw a nerf to Tri Disaster's upfront potency, the average expected DPS is 19,200.

99th is pretty close to mechanical perfection, so we can safely just pick any top log from Ramuh near that amount and make a direct conversion.

Rank 68 will serve.

Ruin 3 contributed approximately 3,000 DPS overall. A straight replacement with Ruin 2, were it possible, would reduce this Summoner by 600 DPS. However, since Ruin 4 and Ruin 2 cannot be separated, this means that we are losing Ruin 4s in buff windows, so the reduction is more significant in the general case, however in this one, the reduction is minimal as the only raid buff the Summoner personally benefits from is Chain Strategem. We'll compromise and say 750 DPS is what the summoner loses by not having Ruin 4s in raid windows they normally would have and replacing all Ruin 3s with 2s.

This 19,200 summoner is therefore reduced to 18,450. 18,450 is approximately the 90th percentile, so it's fairly close to 88th.

Prior to 5.3, the Summoner was more represented in speedkills than the Black Mage.

Prior to 5.2, the Summoner was more represented in progression than the Red Mage. Edengrace was not given a Progress metric, likely due to not having time to prepare the site for such once the content actually dropped (We had approximately 2 weeks for Edengate, where as we had same-day drop for Edengrace), however, even when Summoner was both mechanically jank-ier and about equal to the Red Mage in raw power, the Summoner was still preferred in progress. There is no reason to believe this has changed in 5.2 when the Summoner was objectively stronger than Red Mage due to the changes in 5.1.

So addressing each of the claims:

An '99th' troll summoner will fall to 90th - 18,450 raid DPS. A 99th Dancer, highest of the three ranged, for Ramuh is 18,150.

Summoner doesn't have true Ranged Mobility - They pay a tax for every step outside certain windows, but this usually falls in line with where casters are in general - They share about the same overall amount of mobility in terms of instant casts while having similar phases of movement restriction.

There are distinct scenarios where Red Mage's utility is better, but the general case is that Summoner is just as good. For being the "Prog" option, Red Mage is under represented in early prog compared to Summoner.

With the latest patch, Summoner will require extended, divided multi-target fights to pass Black Mage by significant margins again.

[reivaxe]

Taking a 99th Summoner on Ramuh, a single target nigh full uptime fight (So it doesn't benefit one ranged or caster over another), using the current 5.3 summoner who saw a nerf to Tri Disaster's upfront potency

The Logs in question are from a Smn in late March. At the time the log had a 98% which dropped down to a 91% currently with a 18,940.5 RDPS and 19,009.9 ADPS. This, again, is with him deciding to only cast R3 once and instead spam R2, casting it 84 times in the Ramuh fight.

Smn doesn't have dashes but it is factually the most mobile of the casters, with basically nothing in it's kit forcing it to stand still. IDK of any other job that can still out put such high DPS with such lil drop off by completely ignoring what would normally be their most used skill.
To say they're punished for movement outside of certain windows is to tie this all back into the "their janky pet system is a headache for the devs" statement cause that's what it all comes down to.

They don't "work" like either of the other casters and if their DPS was in line with their freedom of movement (Brd/ Mch level) and their level of utility (only thing Rdm has over them is insta-casting Rez 2 more times before they're oom. Devotion is just a better, more flexible dps buff and their HoT isn't something they can control but does passively heal without stopping their rotation) then no one would put up with the headache of their pet system.

I personally believe "Dot Mage" is something that can work perfectly fine in this game if they could separate it from all the other janky non-sense that is Smn.
Perhaps in 6.0 they make a dot mage and rework Smn to not have Dots, focusing on a new FBT/ BHT like phase that requires hard casting and would replace the egis. IIRC this job has been said to be one of the next to see a massive rework so anything goes imo.

[HeulGDarian]

theyve only said w8 for future adjustements, not that theyll massively rework it. Also no its not factual that we re the most mobile, Rdm is the most mobile. Why? cause he has dual cast not only that he has a go in and a get out skill and at worst they can use some of their gauge to freely move. Smn has to plan his movement gcds and phases This is not janky pet system, the jankiness of the pet system comes from the ghosting and etc that both demis and egis suffer from , Smn has limited free of dps loss movement rdm has unlimited.
Rdm has embolden we got devotion. He is much better on physical teams than we are
rdm chain res makes them ideal for progs , the difference between 1 raise and 3 is massive for prog
And vercure is much better than our hot cause its on demand and it wont be wasted most of the time


Also the logic you are putting is pathetic. In order to balance the job youre asking that they break its legs because you think its busted , You people would be happy for smn to return to 5.0 state when a 50th percentile blm could outdps by 1000 a 75th smn
But sure just talk shit about a job nothing better than saltiness over Numbers.