6.0 summoner ideas

[Kabooa]

See? This is what I mean. I wish these threads would make a pre-req that you need to play the job you're discussing, because literally all 3 "points" this user just made are easily demonstrably wrong and there is no evidence that they didn't just SCH to 80.

Taking a 99th Summoner on Ramuh, a single target nigh full uptime fight (So it doesn't benefit one ranged or caster over another), using the current 5.3 summoner who saw a nerf to Tri Disaster's upfront potency, the average expected DPS is 19,200.

99th is pretty close to mechanical perfection, so we can safely just pick any top log from Ramuh near that amount and make a direct conversion.

Rank 68 will serve.

Ruin 3 contributed approximately 3,000 DPS overall. A straight replacement with Ruin 2, were it possible, would reduce this Summoner by 600 DPS. However, since Ruin 4 and Ruin 2 cannot be separated, this means that we are losing Ruin 4s in buff windows, so the reduction is more significant in the general case, however in this one, the reduction is minimal as the only raid buff the Summoner personally benefits from is Chain Strategem. We'll compromise and say 750 DPS is what the summoner loses by not having Ruin 4s in raid windows they normally would have and replacing all Ruin 3s with 2s.

This 19,200 summoner is therefore reduced to 18,450. 18,450 is approximately the 90th percentile, so it's fairly close to 88th.

Prior to 5.3, the Summoner was more represented in speedkills than the Black Mage.

Prior to 5.2, the Summoner was more represented in progression than the Red Mage. Edengrace was not given a Progress metric, likely due to not having time to prepare the site for such once the content actually dropped (We had approximately 2 weeks for Edengate, where as we had same-day drop for Edengrace), however, even when Summoner was both mechanically jank-ier and about equal to the Red Mage in raw power, the Summoner was still preferred in progress. There is no reason to believe this has changed in 5.2 when the Summoner was objectively stronger than Red Mage due to the changes in 5.1.

So addressing each of the claims:

An '99th' troll summoner will fall to 90th - 18,450 raid DPS. A 99th Dancer, highest of the three ranged, for Ramuh is 18,150.

Summoner doesn't have true Ranged Mobility - They pay a tax for every step outside certain windows, but this usually falls in line with where casters are in general - They share about the same overall amount of mobility in terms of instant casts while having similar phases of movement restriction.

There are distinct scenarios where Red Mage's utility is better, but the general case is that Summoner is just as good. For being the "Prog" option, Red Mage is under represented in early prog compared to Summoner.

With the latest patch, Summoner will require extended, divided multi-target fights to pass Black Mage by significant margins again.

[reivaxe]

Taking a 99th Summoner on Ramuh, a single target nigh full uptime fight (So it doesn't benefit one ranged or caster over another), using the current 5.3 summoner who saw a nerf to Tri Disaster's upfront potency

The Logs in question are from a Smn in late March. At the time the log had a 98% which dropped down to a 91% currently with a 18,940.5 RDPS and 19,009.9 ADPS. This, again, is with him deciding to only cast R3 once and instead spam R2, casting it 84 times in the Ramuh fight.

Smn doesn't have dashes but it is factually the most mobile of the casters, with basically nothing in it's kit forcing it to stand still. IDK of any other job that can still out put such high DPS with such lil drop off by completely ignoring what would normally be their most used skill.
To say they're punished for movement outside of certain windows is to tie this all back into the "their janky pet system is a headache for the devs" statement cause that's what it all comes down to.

They don't "work" like either of the other casters and if their DPS was in line with their freedom of movement (Brd/ Mch level) and their level of utility (only thing Rdm has over them is insta-casting Rez 2 more times before they're oom. Devotion is just a better, more flexible dps buff and their HoT isn't something they can control but does passively heal without stopping their rotation) then no one would put up with the headache of their pet system.

I personally believe "Dot Mage" is something that can work perfectly fine in this game if they could separate it from all the other janky non-sense that is Smn.
Perhaps in 6.0 they make a dot mage and rework Smn to not have Dots, focusing on a new FBT/ BHT like phase that requires hard casting and would replace the egis. IIRC this job has been said to be one of the next to see a massive rework so anything goes imo.

[HeulGDarian]

theyve only said w8 for future adjustements, not that theyll massively rework it. Also no its not factual that we re the most mobile, Rdm is the most mobile. Why? cause he has dual cast not only that he has a go in and a get out skill and at worst they can use some of their gauge to freely move. Smn has to plan his movement gcds and phases This is not janky pet system, the jankiness of the pet system comes from the ghosting and etc that both demis and egis suffer from , Smn has limited free of dps loss movement rdm has unlimited.
Rdm has embolden we got devotion. He is much better on physical teams than we are
rdm chain res makes them ideal for progs , the difference between 1 raise and 3 is massive for prog
And vercure is much better than our hot cause its on demand and it wont be wasted most of the time


Also the logic you are putting is pathetic. In order to balance the job youre asking that they break its legs because you think its busted , You people would be happy for smn to return to 5.0 state when a 50th percentile blm could outdps by 1000 a 75th smn
But sure just talk shit about a job nothing better than saltiness over Numbers.

[Kabooa]

The Logs in question are from a Smn in late March. At the time the log had a 98% which dropped down to a 91% currently with a 18,940.5 RDPS and 19,009.9 ADPS. This, again, is with him deciding to only cast R3 once and instead spam R2, casting it 84 times in the Ramuh fight.

Oh there's actually a mad lad who did it.

Hah.

[Kabooa]

Few issues:

1) A 98 drop to 91 is HUGE. 84 uses is 3.3k potency lost. If you're able to parse 98 on savage consistently, 91 is literally painful save for exceptionally bad RNG. Why are you acting like that it's such an amazing feat or something unheard of? Hell, Higabana-less SAM can probably do the same thing. You truly lack perspective.
2) Mobility is a non-issue for all 3 casters in current content. Mobility should never be used as some sort of metric. Only bad players have issues with mobility. Sorry if that's harsh or some people take it personally. That's just facts. The last time Mobility was truly an issue was UCOB, and that was only for Black Mage. Literally no other current content sees mobility issues for any of the 3 casters so it's a non-point.

1) The point made is that you can intentionally play wrong and still contribute more damage than someone playing nigh perfectly.
2) Actually perfectly encapsulates the problem people have with 1).

If mobility is no longer an issue, then why is 1) possible?

[reivaxe]

Few issues:

1) A 98 drop to 91 is HUGE. 84 uses is 3.3k potency lost. If you're able to parse 98 on savage consistently, 91 is literally painful save for exceptionally bad RNG. Why are you acting like that it's such an amazing feat or something unheard of? Hell, Higabana-less SAM can probably do the same thing. You truly lack perspective.

What on earth are you getting at?
The 98 was the parse it was at the time when it was up loaded, since then enough people have done better than them to push that parse down to 91 (which is only natural, it it the most popular job in the game and the more time passes the more 99s/100s will pop up). This person knows how to play Smn has parsed 99 with them and chose to ignore r3 to see what they could get. TBH once you're bis getting into the 90s is a matter of optimization and Crit RNG given the nature of this game being heavily Vertical Progression focused. So yeah, naturally someone playing with BiS in a non-optimal way would do worse than those who are BiS but playing the optimal way. That's not the point, the point is that someone can straight up ignore the normally most used attack in their rotation to effectively "play like a ranged physical" and have such lil drop off that they still do more DPS than a ranged physical played perfectly. Job is overtuned for clear reasons to me, if it followed the rules that dictate how much damage is allowed for other jobs it wouldn't be played.

Also, a Sam Dot seems like a poor comparison to literally ignoring your most used skill/ spell and replacing it with an insta cast that allows you to move freely and play like a whole different type of DPS.

2) Mobility is a non-issue for all 3 casters in current content. Mobility should never be used as some sort of metric.

Hmm? Blm def has good mobility for what they are but most anyone would agree you're in for a feels-bad if you want to blind prog as Blm. That's not the point though, they're asked to think about when and where they can cast in a fight. SE clearly uses freedom of movement as a metric to balance jobs, this is why Ranged DPS get "ranged tax", the jobs with the lease to worry about when it comes to fight mechanics who can have full up time do the lowest DPS compared to Melees and other jobs that can't run around like Sonic as they go pew pew ... but not Smn, lul.

Of course, you'd know point 2 if YOU PLAYED THE CASTERS. Why are you in a discussion about a job you clearly have not, and I can find no record of you ever have, played? I'm not talking dungeon runs and leveling, where people can mash their keyboard and eventually get through, mind you. Like, honestly? It's like someone going to a book club's final discussions on a novel and talking about the book, but you've only read the synopsis on the back. You just detract and waste everyone's time trying to talk about material you don't know.

lol get over yourself, you don't need to take a job to savage to have an opinion about game design buddy.
It's basic pattern recognition, anyone who follows this game would know how much the devs struggle to make Smn "work".
If you want to actually talk about game and job design then feel free to reply, if you just want to toss a tizzy over someone saying this job is overtuned in an effort to make up for their ongoing struggles to balance it's unique pet system and janky design (which they hate and even I, someone who didn't bother with the job until this expac, could remember times when it worked completely different) then I think it's best if you step back and detach yourself from what your feeling are on a job. Perfectly cool for anyone to like Smn as is ... and I don't think one should need savage parse on the job to comment on it as we can all understand basic job design