Maybe we need a Cataclysm

[Divinemights]

As someone who played WoW back then, Cataclysm was the first step in the wrong direction but it did not "kill" the game. The zone reworks for example were a net gain.
What did ultimately "kill" the game for me and the majority of my circle was the disappointment that was Warlords of Draenor after years of the game developing in a direction we did not like.

I still did not grow tired of telling anyone who will listen that Wrath of the Lich King was the best expansion that game ever had, though.

As for FFXIV? We'll have to see where things go when the Ascian arc is wrapped up.
They'll have to consider an alternative starting point for new players sometime in the not too distant future because the required number of MSQs for people to go through is already daunting enough without heaping another three Expansions worth of Quests onto it. The start of a new saga seems like a decent enough opportunity to do so.

I can’t agree as I am seeing Catalysm killed raiding and guilds. It also destroyed the original player base and the community established. I am pretty sure I am not only one who only raid because of friends we knew before Catalysm and don’t gives a horse crap on people we pick up to full the gap after Catalysm

[Shurrikhan]

I can’t agree as I am seeing Catalysm killed raiding and guilds. It also destroyed the original player base and the community established. I am pretty sure I am not only one who only raid because of friends we knew before Catalysm and don’t gives a horse crap on people we pick up to full the gap after Catalysm

Its poor class balance and, therein, difficulty killed raiding guilds, not a change to the world from 2 expansions prior that would only affect new alt classes and better flesh out their leveling experience.

It did not destroy the original player base.

It did not destroy the community, outside of the aforementioned raid guilds getting tired of being forced to reroll to a handful of jobs to clear cutting edge content because they were so contextually overpowered and the checks were so tight.

Sure, you probably weren't the only person to care only about the friends you had up to a given expansion, and care not at all for all the other people who continued playing the game after your friends' departure, but... what does that have to with Cataclysm™? The same can be said for every expansion.

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On (the broader) topic:

The OP is referring to only one thing: a sweeping change, by way of some large event, by which to reinvigorate the open world and various systems (e.g. of progression). All other parts of a "cataclysm", in reference to WoW or otherwise, are besides the point. Let's not conflate them.

[linayar]

The OP is referring to only one thing: a sweeping change, by way of some large event, by which to reinvigorate the open world and various systems (e.g. of progression). All other parts of a "cataclysm", in reference to WoW or otherwise, are besides the point. Let's not conflate them.

The problem is that such a "sweeping change, by way of some large event," disturbs the leveling experience story-wise like Cataclysm in WoW. In FFXIV, 1.0 to 2.0 only works because it's a reset of the game and essentially your character (with people not remembering 1.0 characters).

So unless SE is willing to move the player starting experience forward in the story timeline, which is more doubtful now given the recent ARR revamp, another calamity would not be appropriate. Not to mention that Shadowbringers was about preventing a calamity and this overall story arc coming to its end, which should be the end of all calamities altogether, one way or another.

Sweeping change can still occur, but not with some large event that physically changes the existing world in a large scale like a calamity.

[Penthea]

Sweeping change can still occur, but not with some large event that physically changes the existing world in a large scale like a calamity.

I think the most likely thing to happen is if we do see another calamity it will be somewhere that we haven't been to yet. As you have said SE have just revamped ARR. There is no way they will render all that work irrelevant by having a calamity remove that content. Also by having it somewhere we haven't been to yet means the places that players love stay intact. I recall in WoW's Cataclysm expansion many players were upset by how some of the zones changed.

And no I don't mean a calamity by ascian design, I just mean a large scale disaster in general. SE have more or less closed the book on ascian calamities, and I get the impression that a certain someone who was revealed at the end of 5.3 msq is more interested in seeing people suffer rather than just erase them entirely. You can't play with your toys if they're turned to dust.

[Shurrikhan]

The problem is that such a "sweeping change, by way of some large event," disturbs the leveling experience story-wise like Cataclysm in WoW.

Not necessarily. Take the more recent change of the world being overrun by Nzoth's corruption, for example: that only takes effect after one has encountered Nzoth, in the endgame. Now, that particular example doesn't have the presence that the TC was looking for, as it was only ever meant to be a story-immersion component rather than sweeping change, but the same could as easily have occurred for Cataclysm, bringing players through what parts they wanted of the original experience and then reopening the original world through its changes after Deathwing's awakening.

It just depends on the changes one wishes to make and what range they wish to affect. The "sweeping change" could occur at endgame, and yet provide excuse for improvements at endgame and so forth that in turn provide excuse to make general improvements to the leveling experience, all without retroactively touching the game's storylines in any way.

[linayar]

Not necessarily. Take the more recent change of the world being overrun by Nzoth's corruption, for example: that only takes effect after one has encountered Nzoth, in the endgame.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't encounter N'zoth until you get inside the raid. Meanwhile, you can experience the corruption effect, including gears that can corrupt, before you even do the 8.3 starting quest that gets you the cloak. In fact, in the beginning, people in LFR can even go to N'zoth without getting the cloak before Blizzard fixed it eventually.

Now, that particular example doesn't have the presence that the TC was looking for, as it was only ever meant to be a story-immersion component rather than sweeping change, but the same could as easily have occurred for Cataclysm, bringing players through what parts they wanted of the original experience and then reopening the original world through its changes after Deathwing's awakening.

I think they just wanted to redo quests and add flying to the original zones and they used Deathwing as lore reason, so the quests had to reflect that even though they're at low levels. If they didn't tie it to Deathwing, they wouldn't even need the Cataclysm itself and just have Deathwing be another threat without affecting the landscape.

It just depends on the changes one wishes to make and what range they wish to affect. The "sweeping change" could occur at endgame, and yet provide excuse for improvements at endgame and so forth that in turn provide excuse to make general improvements to the leveling experience, all without retroactively touching the game's storylines in any way.

You have to be careful with the part in bold.

For example, you can change the FATE system in this game and tie it to an event that happens at MSQ level 80, but if you do that, it does not make any sense for that change to be experienced by people who have not done that quest. Or, you can just change the FATE system without tying it to any particular event and make its effect felt throughout the whole game.

Anyways, after rereading the OP, I hope that the roulette for tomestones isn't going to change. The point is to give max level players a reason to do old duties and help others queue, so I'm not sure how a calamity is supposed to change that while still helping out the queue.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't encounter N'zoth until you get inside the raid. Meanwhile, you can experience the corruption effect, including gears that can corrupt, before you even do the 8.3 starting quest that gets you the cloak. In fact, in the beginning, people in LFR can even go to N'zoth without getting the cloak before Blizzard fixed it eventually.

I'm referring to the entity in the plot, not just the final boss fight (or trivialized LFR version thereof). My alts have no trouble leveling through Uldum just because that zone is later reused for endgame content.

Nzoth had already spoken to us (literally getting in our heads) well before the 8.3 starting quest. Heck, his name's been tossed around a fair bit since the previous expansion and was a prominent lore figure behind the both the 8.1 and 8.2 raid series. He was even featured in a cinematic before BfA was released.

He's not exactly "an unknown" prior to his fight; he's the central antagonist of the whole expansion, just acting through various other agents until that final boss encounter.

For example, you can change the FATE system in this game and tie it to an event that happens at MSQ level 80, but if you do that, it does not make any sense for that change to be experienced by people who have not done that quest.

It absolutely can. You can build up cooler uses of FATE's central mechanics, allowing for -- for once -- a truly interesting or difficult FATE, and then trickle those interesting mechanics down across all prior FATEs. You don't need 'Latest Ascian Boi X' to feature prominently in each of those FATEs for them to make use of the tech.

Similarly, you can develop, say, more interesting gearing or upgrade/augmentation systems as a central feature for a new raid tier, but still make use of parts of those concepts (with the lore in no way conflicted) across the game as a whole.

Anyways, after rereading the OP, I hope that the roulette for tomestones isn't going to change. The point is to give max level players a reason to do old duties and help others queue, so I'm not sure how a calamity is supposed to change that while still helping out the queue.

Same, honestly. I mean, I do want to see an actual Expert Roulette at some point, and content upscaling, and a ton of other features to make more efficient use of development time as considered over more than just the latest patch, but the purpose of roulettes is a good one.

[linayar]

I'm referring to the entity in the plot, not just the final boss fight (or trivialized LFR version thereof). My alts have no trouble leveling through Uldum just because that zone is later reused for endgame content.

Nzoth had already spoken to us (literally getting in our heads) well before the 8.3 starting quest. Heck, his name's been tossed around a fair bit since the previous expansion and was a prominent lore figure behind the both the 8.1 and 8.2 raid series. He was even featured in a cinematic before BfA was released.

He's not exactly "an unknown" prior to his fight; he's the central antagonist of the whole expansion, just acting through various other agents until that final boss encounter.

Ok, so I didn't have an alt that could level through Uldum at the time, so I'll take your word on that, and that's good. However, maybe it's because WoW separates level from quest progression, but my alt that was still doing initial BfA zone quests that got to 120 and did world quests got corrupted gear even though corruption was only supposed to happen because of N'zoth being freed, which doesn't even happen until the end of 8.2 with the EP raid. So that's the type of sweeping change that (hopefully) would not happen in FFXIV.

It absolutely can. You can build up cooler uses of FATE's central mechanics, allowing for -- for once -- a truly interesting or difficult FATE, and then trickle those interesting mechanics down across all prior FATEs. You don't 'Latest Ascian Boi X' to feature prominently in those FATEs for them to make use of the tech.

Similarly, you can develop, say, more interesting gearing or upgrade/augmentation systems as a central feature for a new raid tier, but still make use of parts of those concepts (lore in no way conflicted) across the game as a whole.

In both cases, the change seems separate from any specific event, and that's fine.

To use N'zoth again as an example:

You can develop a corruption-like system and not tie it to N'zoth and make it available on gears at all level (1-120 pre-Shadowlands). But if you make a system and calls it corruption and say it's from N'zoth escaping from prison, then it should not be available to players who have not done the quest to see N'zoth freed, even if they're at level 120.

But WoW is a different game, so corruption is available (at 120, I think). But to go back to FFXIV, I don't think it should happen here. If you want to make a generic change, then just change it.

[Iscah]

It absolutely can. You can build up cooler uses of FATE's central mechanics, allowing for -- for once -- a truly interesting or difficult FATE, and then trickle those interesting mechanics down across all prior FATEs. You don't 'Latest Ascian Boi X' to feature prominently in those FATEs for them to make use of the tech.

Similarly, you can develop, say, more interesting gearing or upgrade/augmentation systems as a central feature for a new raid tier, but still make use of parts of those concepts (lore in no way conflicted) across the game as a whole.

Yes, they can improve game mechanics in a way that that has no impact on the game's lore. That's the opposite of the OP's argument, which seems to be that it's somehow necessary to have a cataclysm calamity to achieve that effect.

If you want gameplay improvements, ask for gameplay improvements. Don't ask to restructure the game zones to achieve that objective, because they aren't linked.

The zones stay as they are because they are set pieces for the MSQ. Whether it's current, whether it's via NG+, those zones need to retain their physical forms so new and old players can share that space.