Buffs to dragoon

[SpeckledBurd]

I Mained Dragoon since 2.0. You obviously must of not seen when they buffed monk in the early 2.0 cycle and didn't touch DRG until final coil.
That's not true at all, Check Log data on your claims and Monk has had top fights in previous expansions Lots of different fights, I know because IVE Personally Cleared those many fights with a MONK!

Monk was superior in the Manipulator Fight in Gordias, I played with a Monk Through out my entire end game raiding cycle with the same exact Monk Since Second coil.

Manipulator, Brute Justice, Refurbisher 0, Were all great fights for monk as well.

The Closest fight in those cycles was cruise chaser.

I have personal Experience playing with a Monk for From Second Coil, All the way until Eden gate. We've toughly looked at issues in the design and it's plain and obvious that Monk has some serious clunky issues in the recent expansion, But your statements doesn't even disprove the fact.

Clearly your comment is just an attempt to Gas-light me I am fully aware that you and your close community has something out for me.

You're forgetting that the DPS reports of Heavensward and Stormblood aren't at all comparable to the rDPS report metrics that are reported now.

In those expansions fflogs didn't report raid DPS, they only reported personal damage. In those days Monk had a negative raid contribution due to forcing tanks into Tank Stance courtesy of it's lack of aggro control and forcing ranged to play TP song due to it's TP burn, while Heavensward was when Dragoon's raid contribution was at it's most powerful.

In all of the fights you say Monk was "leading" in Heavensward, it was only by an incredibly slim margin of about 50-80~ personal DPS without considering what a Monk would do to the Tanks/Ranged party members by existing. This was when Dragoon was adding 200 DPS to any ranged you had in your party courtesy of the piercing debuff. That's more than enough to beat Monk's personal DPS alone by a huge margin for those days and it had an addition 150-200 DPS from Battle Litany on top of that. If the rDPS metric as it exists today were available for older fights, Monk in Heavensward would be as behind in rDPS as the ranged jobs are now, possibly more. The same is true for Stormblood, where even on fights like Demon Chadarnook when Monk was at its best and was able to do completely uninterrupted Tornado Kick rotation, the edge it had over Dragoon was only about 200 DPS which was eclipsed immediately by the piercing debuff and that gap was made even wider by both Dragon Sight and Battle Litany.

Dragoon has been unequivocally better than Monk for every fight from 3.0 until 5.0 in a normal comp.

[Renkei]

You're forgetting that the DPS reports of Heavensward and Stormblood aren't at all comparable to the rDPS report metrics that are reported now.

In those expansions fflogs didn't report raid DPS, they only reported personal damage. In those days Monk had a negative raid contribution due to forcing tanks into Tank Stance courtesy of it's lack of aggro control and forcing ranged to play TP song due to it's TP burn, while Heavensward was when Dragoon's raid contribution was at it's most powerful.

In all of the fights you say Monk was "leading" in Heavensward, it was only by an incredibly slim margin of about 50-80~ personal DPS without considering what a Monk would do to the Tanks/Ranged party members by existing. This was when Dragoon was adding 200 DPS to any ranged you had in your party courtesy of the piercing debuff. That's more than enough to beat Monk's personal DPS alone by a huge margin for those days and it had an addition 150-200 DPS from Battle Litany on top of that. If the rDPS metric as it exists today were available for older fights, Monk in Heavensward would be as behind in rDPS as the ranged jobs are now, possibly more. The same is true for Stormblood, where even on fights like Demon Chadarnook when Monk was at its best and was able to do completely uninterrupted Tornado Kick rotation, the edge it had over Dragoon was only about 200 DPS which was eclipsed immediately by the piercing debuff and that gap was made even wider by both Dragon Sight and Battle Litany.

Dragoon has been unequivocally better than Monk for every fight from 3.0 until 5.0 in a normal comp.

You say that then continue to try comparing the two metrics to each-other. So it's okay for you to compare but not me?

Bard Using Army's Paeon was absolutely normal in play during that time period, it was always NORMAL even through out ARR. It was important to Invigorate as Early as you can without clipping its potency.

Ripping Hate off Tanks? That is Not normal what so ever, Through out all of heavenwards that was never an issue for our tanks, Maybe at your level of play it was but not my groups.

I want them to Change MNK because its Clunky.

Thanks. We all needed a laugh.

Okay? How is this even constructive? Maybe because it's not? I expect no less from two representatives of "The Balance".

The Truth is pretty funny isn't it. I mean you wouldn't know because your told what to think.

[SpeckledBurd]

You say that then continue to try comparing the two metrics to each-other. So it's okay for you to compare but not me?

Bard Using Army's Paeon was absolutely normal in play during that time period, it was always NORMAL even through out ARR. It was important to Invigorate as Early as you can without clipping its potency.

Ripping Hate off Tanks? That is Not normal what so ever, Through out all of heavenwards that was never an issue for our tanks, Maybe at your level of play it was but not my groups.

I'm not comparing personal DPS to rDPS, I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward, where Dragoon's was massively higher the entire expansion, and Dragoon's rDPS in Stormblood to Monk's rDPS in Stormblood, where again, Dragoon's was massively stronger because Piercing, Battle Litany, and Dragon Sight was all collectively better than Monk's Personal damage and Brotherhood.

Even if using Army's Paeon/Rook Promotion was normal, it was still required earlier and more often when you had a Monk in the party because of it's TP issues. Yes you hit Invigorate at 600 TP every time, but guess what, Monk used more TP than other jobs so even doing that Monk's TP burn went faster.

Ripping hate off tanks isn't something I mentioned so nice job trying to put words in my mouth. Also nice job trying to imply that I didn't raid in Heavensward and that I didn't know what I was doing, but I did and cleared all of Creator Savage well before Heavensward ended, and that was when the disparity between Monk and Dragoon was at it's greatest.

[Renkei]

Yes you hit Invigorate at 600 TP every time, but guess what, Monk used more TP than other jobs so even doing that Monk's TP burn went faster.

Ripping hate off tanks isn't something I mentioned so nice job trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward

Those two metrics didn't exist in Heavensward which is my point, You can't compare metrics that didn't exist at the time. That's an "apples vs oranges" comparison.

Now with the cutting of Piercing and Litany I think it's more of a concern how much damage jobs like BLM/SMN/SAM do compared to jobs that have support Utility. Granted SMN has it and is doing amazing compared to the jobs that do have it.

Piercing Debuff > Monks Crushing Debuff was due to no classes exploiting Crush, Battle Litany is more flexible due to the Nature of Crit scaling OP at time of release, Dragon-Sight is actually pretty minor considering that it's damage output was similar to that of power surge. they are better then MNK Brotherhood But that's a comparison of 3 buffs Versus one, I've thought they should of done something earlier about Monks UTILITY; they thought Crushing Debuff and Dragons-kick INT Down + Trait Mantra Outweighed a buff?


It's important to note that B4B also increased damage output taken by the DRG causing magic damage to turn deadly in some situations to a minor extent for MNK too

you invigorated at 560 to prevent losing 40 TP was mainly due to its original potency being crazy low and DRG had it Traited, MNK managed a slightly lower tp cost, This gave monk a TP advantage in fights that required more mobility time and winding up on weaker targets an advantage to monks damage output, DRG had the disadvantage of having to wind up with heavy thrust and disembowel before receiving full output but monk had the advantage of not requiring it, This didn't show in every fight and often due to Tanks not having Invigorate which Lead to the fights having to have breaks for the tanks to GAIN TP.

Review historical TP Costs.

NODE : #45
"In those days Monk had a negative raid contribution due to forcing tanks into Tank Stance courtesy of it's lack of aggro control"
"Last edited by SpeckledBurd; 09-09-2020 at 04:07 PM. "

Quoting you and what that implies is that it forces tanks into tank stance due to it's lack of AGGRO Control. Implying that tanks MUST go into tank stance in order to compensate for the CE generated by Monks damage output. Nice try though.

MNK and DRG Disparity then was mainly due to the lack of Offensive utility that monk provided; I Don't see how that's relevant now when monks biggest problem is the Clunky Anatman opening it suffers with right now. Heavensward was mostly dominated by BLM/SMN/MCH/BRD, with rarely fights going to melee classes So I'd say there is biggest fish to fry then the feud in-between the two original melee DD's.

OPEN YOUR EYES SHEEPLE! THE MOON IS A LIE! FOR IT HAS TOLD ME SO!

Trying to deny Dragoon has been anything other than strictly better than monk at any point after ARR is laughably ignorant.

Once again every-time i've tried having a constructive conversation with you.
There is no need for you to feel cornered in such a fashion that you have to resort to Mocking/Gas-lighting but okay.

What you prefer they change DRG back to what it was pre-2.45 when DRG was in a less playable state?

2.45 Patch notes Source :

(https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cf56b933b99601)

Besides at least they are willing to look at MNK right now after already giving it a major adjustment.
Meanwhile the community is bashing any other job that needs to be looked at considering DRG is in LAST PLACE out of melee.

Matter of FACT Dragoon right now is barely doing 40 more DPS then DANCER is at higher tiers, and monk is out damaging it by 120.


That's why i find it really hard to believe you guys are serious at all when the evidence suggests otherwise.

FFLOGS Statics Aggregate.
[https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...regate=amount]

[Shurrikhan]

Matter of FACT Dragoon right now is barely doing 40 more DPS then DANCER is at higher tiers, and monk is out damaging it by 120.

Max represents no more than history's best padded run.

99%, 95%, and 90% all tell a very different story.

[Renkei]

Max represents no more than history's best padded run.

99%, 95%, and 90% all tell a very different story.

That's not true because the evidence you point that tells a "very different story" Tells the same exact story i am telling you.

All these are in RDPS

90th.
MNK 17,804.35 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -1421.9
Combined Total : 37,362.02‬

DRG 17,621.66 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -1,666.47
Combined Total : 36,909.79‬
Difference : Monk Wins at 244.57 Advantage.

95th
MNK 18,135.77 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -1,090.48
Combined Total : 37,362.02‬

DRG 17,982.30 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -1,305.83‬
Combined Total : 37,270.43‬
Difference : Monk Wins at 215.35‬ Advantage.


99th

MNK 18,689.27 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -536.98
Combined Total : 37,915.52‬
DRG 18,510.23 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -777.9‬
Combined Total : 37,798.36‬
Difference : Monk Wins at 240.92 Advantage.


Here's some more factual Evidence that is proving that Monks rework will just leave DRG in the dust, as its already in an advantaged position due to its higher minimal parse damage at all percentiles you mentioned.

you keep asserting those assessments but you don't follow through with the data. I've constantly reviewed meta-data thoroughly, The Biggest difference is there are more DRG's then MNK's, It's a population and Frequency issue then a damage issue, Do i want monk to be reworked? YES but only Anatman. They don't deserve an increase in damage output because their Minimum damage advantage DOUBLES the maximum damage advantage that DRG has. Balance wise they are in a great place EXCEPT for Anatman.

Its easier to argue that DRG and MNK need to be brought up to SAM/BLM/SMN levels

[Shurrikhan]

...

At the time of your initial comment, Dragoon was "barely doing 40 dps more than Dancer's" at one and only one level of play, Max. (That is, by the way, no longer true. Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM, while managing far nearer to SAM's damage than SAM manages relative to BLM. It does 293 more dps than Monk, if that actually mattered.)

If split by boss, such was also true only in one fight, Ifrit & Garuda - Max. (Note also that even at Max, Dragoon is ahead of Monk on all but that one fight. That is to say, one fight in particular perhaps unfairly screws over Dragoon, rather than Dragoon lacking for raw power. ...Similarly, in Eden's Gate, that distinction went to Eden Prime, while Dragoon was neck and neck with Monk on all other fights.)

In all other tiers or fights, Dragoon was within 2% of Monk (sometimes even in Dragoon's favor), i.e. a very different story than your "Dragoon is in last place" as if by a mile.

Also,

I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward

Those two metrics didn't exist in Heavensward which is my point, You can't compare metrics that didn't exist at the time. That's an "apples vs oranges" comparison.

rDPS evaluation was already being done in Heavensward. It just wasn't the default setting of fflogs.

[Ramura_Sono]

Okay? How is this even constructive? Maybe because it's not? I expect no less from two representatives of "The Balance".

The Truth is pretty funny isn't it. I mean you wouldn't know because your told what to think.

OPEN YOUR EYES SHEEPLE! THE MOON IS A LIE! FOR IT HAS TOLD ME SO!

I couldn't care less what the balance says about anything. Nice try buttercup.

Trying to deny Dragoon has been anything other than strictly better than monk at any point after ARR is laughably ignorant.