The toxicity starting to happen.

[Katie_Kitty]

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

It's group content. If you won't take responsibility for your performance, then the group will by kicking you and finding someone who gives a crap about other peoples' time. Sounds like a single-player game is more your style, or a DnD campaign.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

You dont need a guide to read your tooltips, think about skills, or ask questions from fellow players.

This is all very true but as for tooltips well, unless they've changed significantly since Heavensward (beyond obvious changes to the actions as a whole), they don't adequately describe what the action does or better yet how it should be used. I remember picking up Whitemage and happily spamming Cure 3 because I assumed, like in other Final Fantasy standalone games, it was simply a more potent version of Cure 2. I got called out it and eventually learned what most everything does (I have 8+ jobs at 80 so that's even more tedious) but memorizing what each action does is a difficult undertaking right out of the box, even if you started at level 1 but especially if you picked out a job that was already significally leveled like any of the added jobs since HW.

I'm not making excuses for not paying attention to or even learning them, but they are not really the best way to learn how to play (a friend of mine uses the tooltip for Suiton as a joke all time, because all it listed was 'grants Suiton' as its description) and expecting people, if not new to the game then at least new to the job to take time away from actual game play to memorize them is... probably not realistic.

But these are problems for low level duties. Expecting competence in level 80 content is certainly not wrong and yes, I think a great deal of players who ascribe to the ideal of 'I play like I want' do heavily rely on veterans to make that work but the game drops the ball on teaching the mechanics of the jobs themselves and expecting the playerbase to fill that gap has historically proven to be a flawed premise.

[phantomr23]

This is all very true but as for tooltips well, unless they've changed significantly since Heavensward (beyond obvious changes to the actions as a whole), they don't adequately describe what the action does or better yet how it should be used. I remember picking up Whitemage and happily spamming Cure 3 because I assumed, like in other Final Fantasy standalone games, it was simply a more potent version of Cure 2. I got called out it and eventually learned what most everything does (I have 8+ jobs at 80 so that's even more tedious) but memorizing what each action does is a difficult undertaking right out of the box, even if you started at level 1 but especially if you picked out a job that was already significally leveled like any of the added jobs since HW.

I dunno, I'd say it's pretty clear. Cure III clearly has a very small AOE effect - you can compare it to Medica II at that point - and a larger heal, but a monumental jump in mana cost, so you could reasonably infer that it's a niche case heal you should use sparingly if everyone is clustered. That said, your point is pretty fair overall, I just think that was a bad example (barring the name, which is stupid for sure); FFXIV has a crippling issue with traits and skills saying they do something that is effectively useless unless you actually sit down and use it. I had absolutely no idea how Fang and Claw / Wheeling Thrust would work on Dragoon even after going over the entire skill set when I hit 30. There's inarguably a massive issue with players refusing to put in the effort to learn even the basics of their class but the game really has to start pushing people to do it.

To this day I maintain that there should be a Hall of the Intermediate and Hall of the Master which, if nothing else, should require you to do two loops of a passable rotation on your class at around 50 and 80. Don't make it too harsh, but at least ask that the RDM player understands Black and White mana and the melee phase; the DRG their positionals and two combo loop; the PLD their magic and melee phase. Have an NPC who will perform the rotation at your request if you need to see it and give quick class tips if need be. Don't demand perfection from the players but do inform them that each class has an objectively correct way to play the core rotation and that they should at least be doing that, even if they're not optimising the small stuff.

Also, regarding the whole "toxic raider" debate going on, I think the original guy was somewhat pretentious and I disagree with him in every possible way, but this whole attitude of casual players pretending that the whole raiding community is a toxic cesspit is beyond obnoxious. The raiding community is where I've met the vast majority of the nicest, most helpful players in this game - they're happy to give advice, put in the extra effort to help and push you to improve so long as you show the effort and commitment. There's bad apples, sure, but I legitimately wonder if the people decrying the raiding community have spent any significant time in it beyond the fringes like these forums?

[Kazrah]

Anyone that has ever played a lalafell for more than 30 days on any NA server can tell you that toxicity has always existed in the game. Hell, I'd expect most direct replies to this post could reinforce that argument.

As someone who has played a lalafell since I started back in the middle of ARR, I can tell you that there's probably less overall toxic behavior in FFXIV, but what toxic behavior that is present is more potent than in any other major MMORPG. In no other online game have I seen such hatred and vitriol against any players just for what race they play in a video game ranging from public hate rallies to booting people from parties and even statics and FCs because of the race they play in this game, yet FFXIV sadly delivers on that (and in spades on some servers).

[Nekaru_Infitima]

It's group content. If you won't take responsibility for your performance, then the group will by kicking you and finding someone who gives a crap about other peoples' time. Sounds like a single-player game is more your style, or a DnD campaign.

Quite bold of you to suddenly assume that I don't play my class right or keep up and hold my own just because I'm arguing that discovery is more fun than following someone else who already did discovery and took the fun out of it. Yes it's group content, but that doesn't mean you can't still play the days when wiki didn't exist and games were free to be explored.

This is the reason I never got into WoW after playing it a few days. It's so old and every secret has been discovered, every play style tried and so many users that you're just another face in the crowd. In FFXIV, you can feel important, you can still travel the world and find things others haven't, secrets they may have missed, find and customize your own play-style and be more than just another mindless player signing on to check a few things and bye. Maybe that's just because it's still newer than WoW, but it just feels like there's more to explore and discover still, and the game not datamined or played to the point of being repetitive.

But that's off-topic. Point is, yes, people should read what the game offers of their class notes and quests to the point of learning their play through the game.
But it is being very controlling to tell people to go watch videos and read guides other members made if they want to learn the ropes through trial and error on their own.
I didn't say not learn their class, I just said learn it on their own through mistakes, the way we learn IRL.

[SturmChurro]

Anyone that has ever played a lalafell for more than 30 days on any NA server can tell you that toxicity has always existed in the game. Hell, I'd expect most direct replies to this post could reinforce that argument.

As someone who has played a lalafell since I started back in the middle of ARR, I can tell you that there's probably less overall toxic behavior in FFXIV, but what toxic behavior that is present is more potent than in any other major MMORPG. In no other online game have I seen such hatred and vitriol against any players just for what race they play in a video game ranging from public hate rallies to booting people from parties and even statics and FCs because of the race they play in this game, yet FFXIV sadly delivers on that (and in spades on some servers).

You saying people are harassed for playing lalafell on NA, and kicked specifically for playing lalafell? I don't know.. I find it hard to believe. I've never played lalafell, granted, but still. The most I've ever seen was jokes at a lalafell's expense, or like pat emotes or something. I've never seen anyone initiate a kick on a lalafell player for being a lalafell.

[phantomr23]

Quite bold of you to suddenly assume that I don't play my class right or keep up and hold my own just because I'm arguing that discovery is more fun than following someone else who already did discovery and took the fun out of it. Yes it's group content, but that doesn't mean you can't still play the days when wiki didn't exist and games were free to be explored.

This is the reason I never got into WoW after playing it a few days. It's so old and every secret has been discovered, every play style tried and so many users that you're just another face in the crowd. In FFXIV, you can feel important, you can still travel the world and find things others haven't, secrets they may have missed, find and customize your own play-style and be more than just another mindless player signing on to check a few things and bye. Maybe that's just because it's still newer than WoW, but it just feels like there's more to explore and discover still, and the game not datamined or played to the point of being repetitive.

But that's off-topic. Point is, yes, people should read what the game offers of their class notes and quests to the point of learning their play through the game.
But it is being very controlling to tell people to go watch videos and read guides other members made if they want to learn the ropes through trial and error on their own.
I didn't say not learn their class, I just said learn it on their own through mistakes, the way we learn IRL.

The main issue with this is that the gulf between the way you'll likely play a class if you're playing it through your own interpretation and the way you should be playing a class can often be absolutely massive. Take healers, for example - they all spend roughly 50 levels with about 1 oGCD heal at max - the most popular one, WHM, doesn't get a single oGCD heal until level 50 itself. Given that, it's no wonder a lot of players gravitate towards playing healers totally wrong, the game builds them to rely on GCD heals which are notoriously slow when damage spikes, meaning they probably spam them and are a little too scared to push out any damage. So if you're in level 60 content and you're still doing that then it's not exactly surprising, but it's still very much not the right way to play the game. Why shouldn't the community take it upon itself to help guide people in the right direction? When the game is unintuitive there's no other avenue; you can learn something like Paladin, Dragoon or Samurai relatively fine on your own, but there's massive gameplay factors that are hugely important to most jobs which the game doesn't explain. The rate at which DoTs tick, the way healers and tanks should also focus heavily on damage, hell, even the differences between Slow, Bind and Heavy (and why that matters so much for Arms Length) - the game just never gives you the information to figure out a lot of jobs to a decent degree solely in game.

(Also, in terms of job performance, "your own play-style" just doesn't exist. There's a right way to play a class and then various degrees of "less right", a lot of which are perfectly viable if they're in the right ballpark. It's not particularly fun to hear, but it is also just a fact of the game's combat.)

[WaxSw]

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

One thing is not having the most optimal playstyle, another things is going to a lv80 dungeon playing like if you were lv20 not doing combos, healing with your lv2 heals and single pulling without mitigating, that is toxic because out of lazyness and refusal to learn the tools the game gives you, you're making everything take more time than necessary and making other party members work harder due to you, as you have said this is an MMO, a MULTIPLAYER game, not a single player game where you can do whatever you want and it only impacts you ,so at least try, even if its out of respect and consideration to your party, and that's without mentioning high end content, there if you can't carry your weight you're out.

Also "Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit." No, when you take a role you play the role how the role is meant to be played (Because a role is that, a set of tasks that you have to do), this game does not allow you almost any freedom when it comes to skills and gameplay, you can't choose specs, stats, skills, etc, you have a fixed set, therefore there is a good way to play and a whole bunch of wrong ways, you break your combo? you are playing bad, you don't use mitigation? you're playing bad, you don't dps as healer? you're playing bad. Not only that but the "Play how I see fit" is the most selfish thing you can do, you're on a multiplayer game if you want to do whatever comes to your mind play a single player game but if you're with people try to not make their experience a living hell.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

One thing is not having the most optimal playstyle, another things is going to a lv80 dungeon playing like if you were lv20 not doing combos, healing with your lv2 heals and single pulling without mitigating, that is toxic because out of lazyness and refusal to learn the tools the game gives you, you're making everything take more time than necessary and making other party members work harder due to you, as you have said this is an MMO, a MULTIPLAYER game, not a single player game where you can do whatever you want and it only impacts you ,so at least try, even if its out of respect and consideration to your party, and that's without mentioning high end content, there if you can't carry your weight you're out.

Also "Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit." No, when you take a role you play the role how the role is meant to be played (Because a role is that, a set of tasks that you have to do), this game does not allow you almost any freedom when it comes to skills and gameplay, you can't choose specs, stats, skills, etc, you're have a fixed set, therefore there is a good way to play and as whole bunch of wrong ways, you break your combo? you are playing bad, you don't use mitigation? you're playing bad, you don't dps as healer you're playing bad. Not only that but the "Play how I see fit" is the most selfish thing you can do, you're on a multiplayer game if you want to do whatever comes to your mind play a single player game but if you're with people try to not make their experience a living hell.

Come off your high-horse kid.

[BaconBits]

Come off your high-horse kid.

Hoo boy, that's a 10/10 rebuttal right there, you might as well give up Wax.