The toxicity starting to happen.

[Hugowulf]

Look at it this way. Before wiki's were a thing and people made articles when the game was new no one knew what to do for their class, no one knew all the secrets, and the efficiency. Some people want to figure that out on their own, to play it without 'cheating'. I know I do. It feels totally cheap to look something up on a guide just because there's struggle. It's like in the Playstation days with strategy guides and walkthroughs. They're tools, and it's fine for people to use them. But not everyone wants to. Some want the mystery of discovery on their own.

Sure, a class may be played best one way with all its rotations. Yeah, some on here may have the class explained down to the literal quantum formulas. ... However, that takes the fun out of it. It's just cheating, by copying what someone else already figured out.

So looking to better yourself is considered cheating, learn something new everyday.

[Shalan]

Look at it this way. Before wiki's were a thing and people made articles when the game was new no one knew what to do for their class, no one knew all the secrets, and the efficiency. Some people want to figure that out on their own, to play it without 'cheating'. I know I do. It feels totally cheap to look something up on a guide just because there's struggle. It's like in the Playstation days with strategy guides and walkthroughs. Their tools, and it's fine for people to use them. But not everyone wants to. Some want the mystery of discovery on their own.

Sure, a class may be played best one way with all its rotations. Yeah, some on here may have the class explained down to the literal quantum formulas. ... However, that takes the fun out of it. It's just cheating, by copying what someone else already figured out.

I can understand that view point, but you're excluding and ignoring things like quest text, the novice hall, that combos cause certain abilities to light up, and your tooltips. These are in game put in by the developers to help you understand how to play at a basic level. NPCs dropping healers hints that they need to DPS some and not just spam cure, abilities comboing into others not just on the tool tips but the next ability in the chain gaining a flashing outline, positional noted in the tooltip, the list goes on.

And yet, time after time, players ignore even those resources and hints, instead choosing to do their own thing to the detriment of others. Trying to suggest that basic gameplay is something that players have to go out of their way and out of the game to find is a complete cop out, and frankly insulting.

I'll reiterate.

Frankly it's insulting to those players as well. Imagine someone telling you that it's okay that you're playing worse than the trusts/NPCs in the game play. That their expectations of you are so low.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

So looking to better yourself is considered cheating, learn something new everyday.

Apparently you didn't read. I said if people want to use it it's fine.
But I consider it cheating if I USE it. And others may think that too.
I DO NOT want to do something that I see as cheating personally.

If you want to better yourself, have at it.

I want the discovery. I want to take on that WoL role and make mistakes and learn from them, start out a novice and improve by dying tons, wiping several, and learning what works and what doesn't on my own. Not just read someone elses work who already did that and took the fun out of it.

[Shalan]

To be fair the game doesn’t exactly explain how to play ones job at all, other than reading tool tips(which some don’t even bother with). It would be nice if y’all of novice extended to level 50 for jobs and how they function. Though I agree that it’s more bothersome that the other players have to stop and teach someone at 70+ content about how popping defensive cooldowns on a tank is beneficial for the team.

I can most definitely agree with that. However my issue and point was with players not even doing the most basic functions their class has, and others defending this lack of action.
I don't expect players to optimize or completely understand their classes (god knows I don't), I'm just utterly sick of seeing no damage healers, free style DPS, etc. cropping up and people acting as if requesting some basic gameplay is a sin.

[BaconBits]

[VirusOnline]

To be honest the biggest amount of toxicity I've seen in this game comes from the casual community, players refusing to learn, rejecting advice/leaving instance when advice is given and being disrespectful to those who give it, players who do not take into consideration the rest of the party and treat this game as a single player game, all of them are far more common than the "You're trash l2p idiot" kind of player.

Also I've noticed a huge amount of those players are healers (curebots) or single pulling no mitigation tanks

You tell me how to play ? Jail.
You try to give me unsolicited advice ? Jail.
You kick me ? Jail.
You infringe upon my personal abilities ? Also, believe it or not, jail to be in future. Over infringe, under infringe, jail.

Best way to stay out of jail is be quiet and protect your soul with memes.

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

When you raid, it's not YOUR call to make. You become a liability and drag to the group and is a common mindset of being kicked. In casual gameplay, do what you want, but expect consequences. Don't expect to not be called out or advised.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

I stand by what I said and my perspective. Didn't miss anything.

It was pretty awesome seeing the user I responded to just continue to reaffirm my statement, though. Not going to lie: Having my own personal beliefs about the "toxic casual" side of the community affirmed is vindicating. Those of us on the other side of the fence self-policed and removed the toxic people from our "clique," for lack of a better term. Be a toxic person? Good luck with raiding.

When will your side do the same?

No need to answer. The likes on their post tell me what it is. When you all learn that you shouldn't support people like Elcia, let me know. THAT is classic toxicity and you all certainly don't call it out. Can't wait to see a few select people jump through hoops to justify it.

Peace <3

Edit: Oh, and before someone tries the "well not everyone is like that" shtick: If all you hear is the vocal minority of your group, then they are your voice. They are your views. They represent you. And I gotta say, that voice comes out as ignorant and toxic to a lot of people, in game and out. Might wanna get to changing that.

So I have called out someone for referring to a large chunk of the community openly as trash, among other things- pointing out that is a toxic mindset. I've noted I understand that he has a reason for being hostile to casuals, much like there's reasoning why casuals who are so used to being treated like trash erect barriers towards criticism. There is a difference between understanding where something comes from, and condoning it.


I've pointed out numerous times now that being a novice or a vet is not an excuse for being toxic, that this is not something excusable for either 'sides'. And if you want to talk about the 'vocal minority' perhaps you'd like to explain why the raiding community allows streamers who tell their viewers to harass people by name while calling them slurs to be treated like they're immune to criticism? Or why someone who constantly refers to casuals as trash is not displaying a toxic mindset- since that seems to be what you are arguing in favour of, or perhaps more accurately ignoring that part of his post so you can argue around it.

No need to answer. The likes on their post tell me what it is. When you all learn that you shouldn't support people like Elcia, let me know. THAT is classic toxicity and you all certainly don't call it out. Can't wait to see a few select people jump through hoops to justify it.

By all means, let me hear it. I asked for you to be specific the last time you posted, and you're still not doing so. I did not simply state that his post displayed a toxic mindset, I was specific about why and the sort of insults he was using to describe other people. But if you want to call me out go ahead, because at the moment it seems like your main issue is that I called someone else out for calling other people trash while making it clear that even if someone goes out of their way to apologize to him in a decent manner for another person's toxic behaviour he will view them all the same way.

On the other hand, both your responses so far have been non specific dismissals without attempting to actually discuss anything- I really have no issue with discussing something with someone who disagrees with me on certain things, as I have been with Melichoir. But you leave me with little to discuss by simply trying to dismiss me.

[Melichoir]

...
Edit: Oh, and before someone tries the "well not everyone is like that" shtick: If all you hear is the vocal minority of your group, then they are your voice. They are your views. They represent you. And I gotta say, that voice comes out as ignorant and toxic to a lot of people, in game and out. Might wanna get to changing that.

No. This is "If you dont decry them, then your guilty with them" argument. It's stupid on its face when given any level of thought or consideration. For example, if you dont even visit the forums and are a raider, if some jerk comes on the forum and claims to speak for all raiders and says something to the effect of "If you dont raid, youre trash", youre suggesting they speak for you when youre not even aware of what theyre saying or that there is even a discussion happening that youre not present?

No one speaks on my behalf, vocal or not, unless I explicitly say so. Much like no one speaks on your behalf unless you say they do. Unless you express your opinion explicitly, then the thing to assume is either you are unaware of the conversation or have no input to give and do not lean any which way.

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

You dont need a guide to read your tooltips, think about skills, or ask questions from fellow players. If youre standing there spamming an AoE on a single target when it is clear by your own tooltips that what you are doing is incredibly damage inefficient, thats on you. And most end game mechanics, like those in seat of sacrifice, youve seen at some point in time in ShB dungeons OR are fairly self explainatory that if you took a hot second to think about the skill and what it does, youd deduce how to resolve it without getting destroyed. And even if you cant, the likely hood that youre doing dungeons in a complete vacuum where there are no veteran players is low. Asking others "Hey what does that symbol mean" and actually taking what they say to heart is still on you.

BTW, most guides arent convoluted messes. Go to Youtube. MTQ or MrHappy go out of their way to explain every fight mechanic they encounter and how to resolve it in some capacity. In Savage, theres more going on so it gets complicated but the guides arent War and Peace in ancient Latin. Theyre pretty straight forward.

It's not about min maxing or hte most efficient rotation. It's about doing your job in a half competent manner. You cant post the RPG argument if youre a SCH and you dont use any healing abilities cause "Well Im role playing a DPS Scholar who just lets their fairy heal". Youre diong your role wrong, and you know it, and its causing issues to your fellow players. Much like if you just press 1 button and never try to do a rotation, and the fight drags on and people die or wipe cause you couldnt be bothered to do even a basic rotation cause "It's not fun! You dont pay my sub!" This is kind of the thinking that generates a lot of friction - that its ok to just not care about playign the game in some capacity cause "Its an RPG, Bro". This is like going to the park to play basketball and a random stranger who asked to join begins running and holding the ball, tackling people, playing the game like football, and saying "Well its just a game man! Im playing basketball the way I want!"

And lets be clear here. Something that has been driving me up the wall about the "I play how I want" argument is that it is incredibly reliant on more competent players to get you through content. Im not saying that you need to know your rotation to a T for max DPS, but if the entire party had the same mindset that they dont need to do even decent rotations, or resolve mechanics properly, then the likely hood of said people even reaching lvl 80 is slim as they wouldnt be able to progress. It is incredibly contingent for some of these fights for a good portion of the group to do the fight properly and resolve mechanics correctly to progress. And yet, some people argue that "they dont have to worry about doing things right" or learn fight mechanics, simply because it at times seems they are being carried through content so what do they care. Let someone else worry about doing it right.

Is that the vast majority of players? No. Of course not. Its a minority of a minority, but it is an argument that is put forward by people who say that' casual content' doesnt require you to know even the basics. And that mindset is only possible when you have people who at least have a basic understanding of the game and mechanics to do it right so you can progress.

[MsMisato]

Apparently you didn't read. I said if people want to use it it's fine.
But I consider it cheating if I USE it. And others may think that too.
I DO NOT want to do something that I see as cheating personally.

If you want to better yourself, have at it.

I want the discovery. I want to take on that WoL role and make mistakes and learn from them, start out a novice and improve by dying tons, wiping several, and learning what works and what doesn't on my own. Not just read someone elses work who already did that and took the fun out of it.

With the exception of day 1 content, ff you queue up for roulette, join a raid or learning party, you are expected to know these things such as rotation because there are people will that will call you out on it if you are pulling the group down. Its been like this for years.

If you want to play with the self discovery and learn it as you go, as you stated, that is fine, but I would recommend doing a preformed party with like minded individuals and do the roulette, raids, extremes, savages, that way. Its going to be a better experience for you in the long run.

[Melichoir]

With the exception of day 1 content, ff you queue up for roulette, join a raid or learning party, you are expected to know these things such as rotation because there are people will that will call you out on it if you are pulling the group down. Its been like this for years.

If you want to play with the self discovery and learn it as you go, as you stated, that is fine, but I would recommend doing a preformed party with like minded individuals and do the roulette, raids, extremes, savages, that way. Its going to be a better experience for you in the long run.

I wonder if they do much raiding, cause there are a lot of raiders who like to YOLO it their first time or so into new content cause, yes, there is some fun in trying to figure out how to beat fights. However if its week 7 of Savage, and people are progging or clearing, unless you run your own PF where you say "Fresh start going blind", expecting other people to cater to you is a bit much.