Summoner: An action or a dot?

[MirronTulaxia]

Fine job but not a fine Summoner certainly fits my take on it. There are a lot of ways they could have gone about it that would have made it work a lot better. Even again if you wanted the DoT theme, you could have tied that into Summoner better.

[Shougun]

Fine job but not a fine Summoner certainly fits my take on it. There are a lot of ways they could have gone about it that would have made it work a lot better. Even again if you wanted the DoT theme, you could have tied that into Summoner better.

Agreed , at least so much on the early SMN- I feel they've improved that feeling a lot since ARR and want to credit that. Sure they still have quite a bit of room they could improve if they wanted (loads of room for summons/summon imagery), but like with Bahamut, trance, and Pheonix it feels far more summoner than when it was just egi and zero trance state, imo. They can still do something with the dots and such mechanics, quite curious if they've been considering it behind the scenes.

I edited my other post to make it more clear I was in parallel with you, just in case I gave the impression it was a rebuttal that somehow magically aligned and I was being silly lol .

[Eloah]

Oh gods, this topic feels like its reopening the whole "it's not a real Summoner" can of worms again. People need to just stop that. Other games even have similar pet jobs that function like this one, called Summoner. This is just FFXIV's take on the classic job, similar to how the healing aspect of SMN was worked into SCH.

Anyways, as far as changes, they've done a good job of making the pet feel more involved, but things can feel a bit disjointed at times, so smoothing that over would be best. Plus while I don't mind the DoTs, maybe making them more summon themed would work better; leave the poisons to SCH.

One thing I've been wanting for SMN is something that temporarily (because let's be realistic, a permanent could be a little too much) turns the Egi into a proper Primal.

Just make it separate from the whole Dreadwyrm Trance -> Bahamut -> Firebird Trance chain...

You mean like what we have now?

Not sure when you started, so you might not be aware of this. But for the longest time the devs said they didn't want to give us "large" summons because they were worried about the amount of space they took up on the screen. But people kept asking and we got Bahamut in 4.0. You know what the first thing players did when they got access to Bahamut was, complain he was too big. It just goes to show you be careful what you ask for. Granted SE was able to adjust the problem with a size command, but still, regardless what the devs do people will complain.

I guess this is an opportunity to paste my summoner fan-redesign that i made in a blood-rage after the 6.0 changes and the discourse surrounding them in an attempt to get these "one big hit and then nothing" and the "but I liked how it was" people to come together on a direction for the class. It's not perfect, and I'd like to put current eggi assaults back into the move list for more pet interaction, but I like the over all design of it

Not gonna lie, trying to decipher this hurt my brain. The organization isn't great, and while I "understand" not wanting to put potencies, CDs, Level etc, those things help people to understand your vision. The main reason you "like" it is because you understand the intricacies of your idea. But the rest of us aren't in your head, so you have to help us visualize it with you. Plus from the initial glance it looks like there is so much going on. I could be wrong but, the whole thing is just information overload.

[Gothicshark]

I just want to get a feel about this, would people prefer if they revamped Summoner for 6.0 and remove egis and instead just let them summon the primal for one big attack or is having your summon pet at your side all the time make/break the job for you?

Why would you even say this? Summoner is all about having your cute little Carbuncle. My Ruby Carbuncle is hissing at you for even saying that.

[HeulGDarian]

Shougun do we seriously have to go through this again? Its not subverting expectations when you still summon like every summoner and you still got side spells that isnt summons like every summoner in the series . especially when its made from a well established magic system.

[HeulGDarian]

The only reason Summoner even exists is because of those old games. And it's not like you can't look at the old games and see a pattern that Summoner doesn't fit.

And I do think they were talking about trimming down Summoner, not making more "unnecessary extra interactions".

Its cause ive played most of them games that i know is bull.
Summoner on ff3, summons had a white attack a black attack and an ultimate attack, had 3 jobs the evoker, the summoner and sage with sage being able to do every spell in the game including summoning
Summoner ff4 , Ridia had Bio and other black magic
Summoner ff5 , summoner had the ability to summmon a random summon at no cost, with the magic system giving you one spot to slot another jobs spell
Summoner ff6 , Every summon gave you magic to use and upped your skills
Summoner ff7, A summon is just a materia and does nothing more
Summoner ff8, Summons give you magic and abilities that boost your stats
Summoner ff10 , Yuna the high summoner was using healing spells and protection spells
Summoner ff13 , The summons attack with you for a period of time before performing a big attack

We go to ff14 and you people make it sound like its the first time a summoner was doing more than just put a summon out. Ill tell you what ff14 summoner is, its the job finally getting what it deserves , a magic system where it can be a standalone job that explains it can do more than just summon , hate it all you like but it is a summoner in every sense of the word. It summons stuff if you want to know why summoner is able to do more than just summons go read the lore, if you cant handle dots play another job.

[Shougun]

Shougun do we seriously have to go through this again? Its not subverting expectations when you still summon like every summoner and you still got side spells that isnt summons like every summoner in the series . especially when its made from a well established magic system.

Summoner does not summon just anything. They summon grand creatures to perform grand feats. ARR summoned in effect puny elementals, and maybe once in a blue moon with enkindle you'd get a sort of neat effect.

ARR SMN was akin to FFXI SMN if all FFXI's SMN was summon elemental spirits. Which would have been pretty bad. Clearly FFXI didn't feel like a summoner just because it summoned elementals. It was because it summoned these awesome creatures.

You will never change my mind (/Equip stubborn lvl 99 :3) to make summoner as simple and paltry as summoning chibi makes you on par with any other summoners of the series. If you call it a FF game then I'm going to compare to other FF games. Dont use the series title if you don't want to be burdened by it's image.

So yes we do and always will have to go through this, assuming we are disusing visual narrative lol (as I edit, my vibe is we are slightly off point on each other). Unless the whole game is chibi themed (then chibi SMN is perfect), but to change Summoner from what is in effect is the most fancy and grandiose job in the entire franchise into a fast food chibi caller with some dots (playing off the meme Titan is a potato). Never going to be on that same page with someone on that lol (nor do I feel obligated to not respond if I think someone is playing fast and loose with history and acting as if there wasn't an incredibly consistent tone with all the past summon contents/jobs or that it has no relationship/importance).

It is a subversion to change a core concept (upset expectations, this isn't always a bad thing- sometimes it creates 'fresh' takes), if you compare every single SMN to each other and the jobs (or characters and spells in jobless FF)- FFXIV stands out as being different. They made some reasons for it, like Yoshida wanting to respect the primals by making them world bosses you could call out as a FC but at the cost of changing summoners vibes.

If you give dark knight only the most bland and boring black magic sure it's still dark knight, but it's kind of lame. Especially if all the other dark knights didn't have that issue. So in this case summoner never had a meager appearance until FFXIV ARR. Ever. They have of course worked to change that, demi(s) and trances included.

So I don't want to give the appearance I'm against what they've done recently, I've in fact regularly cheered the changes (even if sometimes some polish or smoothing might be needed here and there).

Also just in case there is a confusion I'm demanding dots to be removed or the job get a whole rework, though I think primal infusion would be neat (after a certain level or mechanic- such that ifrit turns bio it burn for example). I was mostly responding to the idea that FFXIV lives in a vacuum with no predecessors and that there was no through visual narrative to the job. If your argument is purely summoners have used black and white magic before than yeah sure lol- that's a fact.

[HeulGDarian]

Summoner does not summon just anything. They summon grand creatures to perform grand feats. ARR summoner in effect puny elementals, and maybe once in a blue moon with enkindle you'd get a sort of neat effect.


ARR SMN was akin to FFXI SMN if all FFXI's SMN was summon elemental spirits. Which would have been pretty bad. Clearly FFXI didn't feel like a summoner just because it summoner elementals. It was because it summoner these awesome creatures.


You will never change my mind to make summoner as simple and paltry as summoning chibi makes you on par with any other summoners of the series.


So yes we do and always will have to go through this. I will always appose you on that idea. Unless the whole game is chibi themed, but to change Summoner from what is in effect the most fancy and grandiose job in the entire franchise into a fast food chibi caller with some dots. Never going to be on that same page with you.


It is a subversion to change a core concept, if you compare every single SMN to each other and the jobs (or characters and spells in jobless FF)- FFXIV stands out as being different. They made some reasons for it, like Yoshida wanting to respect the primals by making them world bosses you could call out as a FC but at the cost of changing summoners vibes.


If you give dark knight only the most bland and boring black magic sure it's still dark knight, but it's kind of lame. Especially if all the other dark knights didn't have that issue. So in this case summoner never had a meager appearance until FFXIV ARR. Ever. They have of course worked to change that, demi(s) and trances includes.

That can just be fixed by simply changing how they look, and giving them more things to do. You can call it lame till they do something like that but you cant call it a subversion, Like i said before you may say summoner is meant to have big scary looking summons, i wont disagree with you, but i will say summoner should have options and variety first something that it does have to an extent and that id love to see expanded.

[Shougun]

That can just be fixed by simply changing how they look, and giving them more things to do. You can call it lame till they do something like that but you cant call it a subversion, Like i said before you may say summoner is meant to have big scary looking summons, i wont disagree with you, but i will say summoner should have options and variety first something that it does have to an extent and that id love to see expanded.

My fault for editing after posting but I added some more details, I think you're arguing mechanics and I'm having PTSD (lol) flash backs to when people pretended summoner never had visual narrative or that visual narratives are not important. So many times I was misquoted and saw people make arguments I felt were like "sure if we delete everything and pretend SE doesn't have a franchise..... You're clearly here to say they can do no wrong". To be clear I don't argue if people like a certain gameplay or even if they like the chibi primals. That's opinion (and technically I've even said ARR SMN played well)- but I would vehemently disagree on narrative, history, and options available, which is where I probably get so "No, you listen here -- chocobo is not cactuar don't you pull this funny business on me". Lol

Mechanically yes, summoner has had diversity. Many, many times. Sometimes strictly primal related but even then it was diverse in effects.

And want to repeat for those joining me in this first world PTSD (so many threads back then lol), I think SE has done a lot since then- I think SE has done a lot since chibi master. Both the trance and demi-bahamut were wonderful additions. Personally also love the flare they added to the second demi... The heal aoe dot (which is actually pretty substantial for a freebie on summon effect). Damn that's exactly the spirit the primal spells should be throwing off. So I speak in the past in some ways when I talk issues.

Also am not against people trying to hold or improve the current system over complete destruction like some people are going for. So long as SE keeps the spirit they've shown recently for SMN I honestly think it will be in good hands. I'm not worried about SE as much as I don't want to see someone hand-wave the importance of a narrative, in particular the through line between each FF that hands the baton off. Which you /can/ fiddle with expectation, it is not forbidden, but that doesn't always lead to good results, maybe sometimes yes and sometimes nooooo lol, especially in a FF game where their presentation and self reference is a legendary and key part of their games. Music and visuals are a cornerstone symbol that are so big you can simply see footage of one and likely be like "ah yes that must be a FF game" .

[HeulGDarian]

So I don't want to give the appearance I'm against what they've done recently, I've in fact regularly cheered the changes (even if sometimes some polish or smoothing might be needed here and there).


Also just in case there is a confusion I'm commanding dots to be removed or the job get a whole rework, though I think primal infusion would be neat (after a certain level or mechanic- such that ifrit turns bio it burn for example). I was mostly responding to the idea that FFXIV lives in a vacuum with no predecessors and that there was no through visual narrative to the job. If your argument is purely summoners have used black and white magic before than yeah sure lol- that's a fact.

Are you from phone ? cause i dont get the commanding part, especially when later you say youd think it would be neat for them to get power upeed by egis :P. Is commanding not demanding but autocorrected?